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I would argue that this is not the end of your country's democracy and that in 2028 a new president will be elected. You'd disagree, I trust?

n2e 2y ago
What's your argument?
- avidiax 2y ago
  I am pretty sure the US will have elections in 2028. But Trump was almost successful in overturning the 2020 election. Now, with additional concentration of power, that increases the possibility of a successful overturning (in favor of a new conservative candidate), or simply a biased election. Dictatorships often have elections and are supposedly democratic. The question is whether those elections reflect the genuine, informed self-interest of the people.
  - kelnos 2y ago
    The difference is that in most dictatorships that have "elections", the elections are run by the central government. In the US, the states run the elections. Sure, the US federal government has some levers and influence, but I think our elections are less susceptible to presidential tampering due to their decentralized nature.
    - avidiax 2y ago
      Being decentralized helps, but there's still only a few voting machine vendors, still nationalized media, and nobody is checking state ID of the protestors at state elections. And US elections have been very tight, and the electoral college means that only a few states being controlled is enough. We also lack an apparatus to overturn a fraudulent election. Even if a judge rules that an election was fraudulent, that's not the same as certifying another vote total nor can it physically remove someone from office.
- hector126 2y ago
  I would argue that this is not the end of your country's democracy and that in 2028 a new president will be elected. You'll have a new president in 2028, be it Vance, Shapiro, or Oprah Winfrey. Either way, it won't be DJT.
thrance 2y ago
A new president, sure. But an opponent? We'll see I guess. Remember when Trump said "we wouldn't have to vote ever again"? That was 3 months ago, so maybe your memory doesn't go that far.
- hector126 2y ago
  I do remember, obviously. Those kind of tired jabs are better suited for /r/politics, I'm sure you'll be right at home there :) That said, I also remember when Trump said he'd build a wall and that Mexico would pay for it. A remarkable amount of what Trump says isn't true, I think everyone's in agreement on that. If the country is happy with the state of affairs in 2028 then I expect you'll have JD Vance as your president. If not, maybe Newsom, Buttigieg (my hope), or Shapiro. Either way, if you truly think that 2024 was the last election Americans will vote in, respectfully, I think you're a little bit deluded.
  - thrance 2y ago
    If your only insurance that Trump and his party will not attempt to illegally hold onto power one way or another is that they constantly lie and may have lied about doing that too, it provides me with little confidence. You fall in the common liberal trap of putting too much faith in the strength of our institutions and democracy. The president is already quite literally above the law, Congress remains passive in the face of obvious unconstitutional acts and the supreme court is on board with it all. Why would they acknowledge the results of a losing election? If it wasn't for the (relative) moral integrity of Mike Pence last time, who knows what would have happened. And if we do switch to democrats, then cool, I'll be happy to eat my hat and give you my five mea culpas. In the meantime, please don't shoot down any worry about the current distressing concentration of power :)

n2e 2y ago

What's your argument?

avidiax 2y ago
I am pretty sure the US will have elections in 2028. But Trump was almost successful in overturning the 2020 election. Now, with additional concentration of power, that increases the possibility of a successful overturning (in favor of a new conservative candidate), or simply a biased election. Dictatorships often have elections and are supposedly democratic. The question is whether those elections reflect the genuine, informed self-interest of the people.
- kelnos 2y ago
  The difference is that in most dictatorships that have "elections", the elections are run by the central government. In the US, the states run the elections. Sure, the US federal government has some levers and influence, but I think our elections are less susceptible to presidential tampering due to their decentralized nature.
  - avidiax 2y ago
    Being decentralized helps, but there's still only a few voting machine vendors, still nationalized media, and nobody is checking state ID of the protestors at state elections. And US elections have been very tight, and the electoral college means that only a few states being controlled is enough. We also lack an apparatus to overturn a fraudulent election. Even if a judge rules that an election was fraudulent, that's not the same as certifying another vote total nor can it physically remove someone from office.
hector126 2y ago
I would argue that this is not the end of your country's democracy and that in 2028 a new president will be elected. You'll have a new president in 2028, be it Vance, Shapiro, or Oprah Winfrey. Either way, it won't be DJT.

thrance 2y ago

A new president, sure. But an opponent? We'll see I guess. Remember when Trump said "we wouldn't have to vote ever again"? That was 3 months ago, so maybe your memory doesn't go that far.

hector126 2y ago
I do remember, obviously. Those kind of tired jabs are better suited for /r/politics, I'm sure you'll be right at home there :) That said, I also remember when Trump said he'd build a wall and that Mexico would pay for it. A remarkable amount of what Trump says isn't true, I think everyone's in agreement on that. If the country is happy with the state of affairs in 2028 then I expect you'll have JD Vance as your president. If not, maybe Newsom, Buttigieg (my hope), or Shapiro. Either way, if you truly think that 2024 was the last election Americans will vote in, respectfully, I think you're a little bit deluded.
- thrance 2y ago
  If your only insurance that Trump and his party will not attempt to illegally hold onto power one way or another is that they constantly lie and may have lied about doing that too, it provides me with little confidence. You fall in the common liberal trap of putting too much faith in the strength of our institutions and democracy. The president is already quite literally above the law, Congress remains passive in the face of obvious unconstitutional acts and the supreme court is on board with it all. Why would they acknowledge the results of a losing election? If it wasn't for the (relative) moral integrity of Mike Pence last time, who knows what would have happened. And if we do switch to democrats, then cool, I'll be happy to eat my hat and give you my five mea culpas. In the meantime, please don't shoot down any worry about the current distressing concentration of power :)