9 ms·

I think your pitch would be significantly stronger if the resources you linked didn't largely revolve around "What if Snoop Dogg had his own currency?" I'm not

I think your pitch would be significantly stronger if the resources you linked didn't largely revolve around "What if Snoop Dogg had his own currency?" I'm not ... completely unable to be persuaded that there are use cases for cryptocurrency. But "Ashton Kutcher should have Aston Kutchercoin, and develop some sort of referral-based pyramid-shaped scheme with it for his fans" is... what is that?

EGreg 2y ago
That's... 1) A way to fill unsold seats at venues, and always have sold-out events 2) A way to reward his members for spreading his message and bringing more people 3) A way to turn his audience into an army of promoters 4) A way to be independent of banks, and accept global payments 5) A way to have a global online movement that becomes bigger than Ashton Kutcher himself... having subcommunities be empowered to get together and form their own meetups, see it happen around the world, if they get large then Ashton and his crew can come and do a rock concert there It's great for political campaigns and many movements as well. We did it for Yang's 2020 campaign for example, with "Yang Gangs", that was very early days in 2020
- miunau 2y ago
  Which one of those five have actually happened in reality, and to what extent? "The American Conservative further stated that a contingent of Yang's digital followers were only backing him for "a fresh platform for surreal and cynical humor" and that Yang had to denounce part of and distance himself from the movement, which largely stemmed from digital supporters of the Trump 2016 campaign.[85]" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Yang_2020_presidential_campaign#%22Yang_Gang%22 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Yang_2020_presidential_...
- habinero 2y ago
  Ok, I'll bite. I read this and my first reactions are: 1. How? 2. Reward them with what? 3. Fans are already promoters. 4. Why is this a good thing? 5. This is just describing fandom, which already exists?
  - llamaimperative 2y ago
    Oh sorry, this way the creator of the underlying infrastructure can collect rent from all aforementioned re-implementations of existing services.
    - EGreg 2y ago
      This is extremely vague and seems to be so on purpose in order to just have some nebulous "attack". Do you really think Web2 platforms aren't the epitome of rentseeking, by taking advantage of their role as middlemen?
      - llamaimperative 2y ago
        Obviously existing middlemen are rent seekers. The question is why anyone should eat the cost of switching to a new, less proven rent seeker. To the hopeful new rent seeker, the pitch is obvious. To everyone else, the provided rationales tend to sound like a whole lot of bullshit.
        EGreg 2y ago
        Why should people use automation at all? This is like asking why people should switch from telephone switchboard operators, to automatic switchboards. Or why should anyone switch from livery cab services to Uber. Technology may be "less proven" initially, but it's far more reliable in the end. It also removes a whole class of inefficiencies and conflicts that won't be possible with smart contracts, the same way that you could remove them if you switched from anything custom to anything standardized. If you just stopped repeating the same tropes "web3 bad" for the sake of saying them, and engage with the substance, you'll see that this is a case of standardization, automation and programming what was previously ad-hoc and requires costly arbitration after the fact.
        llamaimperative 2y ago
        Okay but 1) arbitration is often desirable, which is why these systems allow it, and 2) traditional software can automate just about anything web3 can if you have the same degree of coordination among counterparties
- TeaBrain 2y ago
  Point 2 is the basis for a pyramid scheme.
  - EGreg 2y ago
    Pyramid schemes are illegal, but Multi-Level-Marketing schemes are legal. And you don't need multiple levels. You can have one level. That's called affiliate marketing. Loyalty points are a thing. You can earn them as an affiliate, for instance. It doesn't have to be a pyramid. But if you are going that route, almost all startups are "pyramid schemes" that end up with an IPO where the public continues to demand rents be extracted perpetually to boost stock price endlesssly, resulting in increased "enshittification". I'd rather people earn utility tokens they can spend once into the economy, than shares where they have the right to demand rent extraction and enshittification for everyone else.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - TeaBrain 2y ago
      >Pyramid schemes are illegal, but Multi-Level-Marketing schemes are legal. In this case, this wouldn't even fit the mold for a multilevel marketing scheme, or even affiliate marketing. There are real cash flows detached from a buy-in both of those schemes. >people earn utility tokens they can spend once into the economy, than shares where they have the right to demand rent extraction Again, there's cash flows underlying shares of a company. There's not in the case of a digital asset that people refer to as a coin or token.
      - EGreg 2y ago
        Not sure I understand what you're trying to say. There are "real cash flows" in every case, just what you consider as the unit of account is different. As far as shares, no. It's completely different. Shares are equity securities, that entitle people to dividends or they want the shares to go up in price. Regardless, it sets up a never-ending demand for enshittification and rent extraction that you see across Big Tech. Utility tokens are fundamentally different and don't have those perverse incentives, and remove the shareholder class. It's like comparing shares in Disney Corp, to Disney Dollars.

EGreg 2y ago

That's... 1) A way to fill unsold seats at venues, and always have sold-out events 2) A way to reward his members for spreading his message and bringing more people 3) A way to turn his audience into an army of promoters 4) A way to be independent of banks, and accept global payments 5) A way to have a global online movement that becomes bigger than Ashton Kutcher himself... having subcommunities be empowered to get together and form their own meetups, see it happen around the world, if they get large then Ashton and his crew can come and do a rock concert there It's great for political campaigns and many movements as well. We did it for Yang's 2020 campaign for example, with "Yang Gangs", that was very early days in 2020

miunau 2y ago
Which one of those five have actually happened in reality, and to what extent? "The American Conservative further stated that a contingent of Yang's digital followers were only backing him for "a fresh platform for surreal and cynical humor" and that Yang had to denounce part of and distance himself from the movement, which largely stemmed from digital supporters of the Trump 2016 campaign.[85]" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Yang_2020_presidential_campaign#%22Yang_Gang%22 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Yang_2020_presidential_...
habinero 2y ago
Ok, I'll bite. I read this and my first reactions are: 1. How? 2. Reward them with what? 3. Fans are already promoters. 4. Why is this a good thing? 5. This is just describing fandom, which already exists?
- llamaimperative 2y ago
  Oh sorry, this way the creator of the underlying infrastructure can collect rent from all aforementioned re-implementations of existing services.
  - EGreg 2y ago
    This is extremely vague and seems to be so on purpose in order to just have some nebulous "attack". Do you really think Web2 platforms aren't the epitome of rentseeking, by taking advantage of their role as middlemen?
    - llamaimperative 2y ago
      Obviously existing middlemen are rent seekers. The question is why anyone should eat the cost of switching to a new, less proven rent seeker. To the hopeful new rent seeker, the pitch is obvious. To everyone else, the provided rationales tend to sound like a whole lot of bullshit.
      - EGreg 2y ago
        Why should people use automation at all? This is like asking why people should switch from telephone switchboard operators, to automatic switchboards. Or why should anyone switch from livery cab services to Uber. Technology may be "less proven" initially, but it's far more reliable in the end. It also removes a whole class of inefficiencies and conflicts that won't be possible with smart contracts, the same way that you could remove them if you switched from anything custom to anything standardized. If you just stopped repeating the same tropes "web3 bad" for the sake of saying them, and engage with the substance, you'll see that this is a case of standardization, automation and programming what was previously ad-hoc and requires costly arbitration after the fact.
        llamaimperative 2y ago
        Okay but 1) arbitration is often desirable, which is why these systems allow it, and 2) traditional software can automate just about anything web3 can if you have the same degree of coordination among counterparties
TeaBrain 2y ago
Point 2 is the basis for a pyramid scheme.
- EGreg 2y ago
  Pyramid schemes are illegal, but Multi-Level-Marketing schemes are legal. And you don't need multiple levels. You can have one level. That's called affiliate marketing. Loyalty points are a thing. You can earn them as an affiliate, for instance. It doesn't have to be a pyramid. But if you are going that route, almost all startups are "pyramid schemes" that end up with an IPO where the public continues to demand rents be extracted perpetually to boost stock price endlesssly, resulting in increased "enshittification". I'd rather people earn utility tokens they can spend once into the economy, than shares where they have the right to demand rent extraction and enshittification for everyone else.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - TeaBrain 2y ago
    >Pyramid schemes are illegal, but Multi-Level-Marketing schemes are legal. In this case, this wouldn't even fit the mold for a multilevel marketing scheme, or even affiliate marketing. There are real cash flows detached from a buy-in both of those schemes. >people earn utility tokens they can spend once into the economy, than shares where they have the right to demand rent extraction Again, there's cash flows underlying shares of a company. There's not in the case of a digital asset that people refer to as a coin or token.
    - EGreg 2y ago
      Not sure I understand what you're trying to say. There are "real cash flows" in every case, just what you consider as the unit of account is different. As far as shares, no. It's completely different. Shares are equity securities, that entitle people to dividends or they want the shares to go up in price. Regardless, it sets up a never-ending demand for enshittification and rent extraction that you see across Big Tech. Utility tokens are fundamentally different and don't have those perverse incentives, and remove the shareholder class. It's like comparing shares in Disney Corp, to Disney Dollars.