4 ms·

Europe will not be part of Ukraine-Russia peace talks, US envoy says

29 points by colund 2y ago

Arnt 2y ago
There's a quote... I think it was Kissinger, but I can't find it now. "Don't issue an order unless you're prepared to back it up with force." See also: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43059411 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43059411
- netsharc 2y ago
  A Zelensky, Trump and Putin is really 2 wolves and a lamb meeting to decide what's for lunch. Or a better analogy may be a lamb, a wolf and its bitch.
  - Arnt 2y ago
    That's what Putin thought at the beginning of the three day war. Not surprised if Trump thought so too.
- rightbyte 2y ago
  Wasn't it "Don't issue an order that wont be followed" or some such? I think it is a common saying even though Kissinger might have also said it.
  - baybal2 2y ago
    [dead]
zkmon 2y ago
Whether they will be a part or not, it will go down in history how Europe forgot world history. This is exactly how colonialism worked in the 18th century. Put fights between brothers and then make deals with the one that is desperate for help. The great strategy was called divide and rule.
- quantified 2y ago
  Who are the brothers and who is pitting the fight in this case?
- p2detar 2y ago
  With brothers I'd assume you mean Ukraine and Russia? While something could be said about the role of US in starting the war, it is entirely a decision of Russia's leadership. There is a war, because Putin wanted a war. It is as simple as that. Europe's sins are extremely weak leadership at the moment and to some degree defragmentation of priorities. I have to give it to Putin, he did put an enormous amount of effort to break up the west. At the expense of Russians IMHO, but nevertheless results are evident. Something tells me though that however the Ukraine "deal" ends, it won't be the end of wartime in Europe. As far as I read the other day drafting continues in Russia across all Oblasts with large sums of money paid to people signing up. Appeasement never works. edit: typos
  - drysine 2y ago
    >There is a war, because Putin wanted a war. Well, yeah, but it didn't start in 2022 -- the Ukraine was building up its military and the West was training them. But it didn't even start in 2014 -- have a look at this: Here is George Bush Sr. in 1991 talking in Kiev: "They [Americans] will not aid those who promote a suicidal nationalism based upon ethnic hatred." [0] But then Bush was gone and new presidents thought otherwise with their efforts culminating in 2014: "The night before the clashes, Right Sector called on all of its members to ready themselves for a "peace offensive" on 18 February. The Maidan People's Union also urged all concerned citizens to take part in the "peace offensive", which student unions had agreed to join as well. The Maidan Union reported on the morning of 18 February that columns of protesters would begin a march on parliament at 08:30. That morning, around 20,000 demonstrators marched on the parliament building as that body was set to consider opposition demands for a new constitution and government. Around 09:45, the demonstrators broke through the police barricade of several personnel-transport trucks near the building of the Central Officers' Club of Ukraine and pushed the cordon of police aside. The clashes started after some two dozen demonstrators moved a police vehicle blocking their path to parliament." [1] "Right Sector is a loosely defined coalition of right-wing to far-right Ukrainian nationalist organizations." [2] [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vkjxf76xRTw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vkjxf76xRTw [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolution_of_Dignity#Protest_march_and_initial_clashes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolution_of_Dignity#Protest_... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_Sector https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_Sector
ChocolateGod 2y ago
Europe will be the one that ultimately forks out for rebuilding Ukraine once the war is over. Perhaps it shouldn't.
- polski-g 2y ago
  There is no certainty this is the case. There is no European country that is operating at a surplus currently.
thisislife2 2y ago
An old adage about politicians is is to observe what they do, not what they say. This is more true with Trump as he follows, what is called the Mad Man strategy - The madman theory posits that a leader who behaves as if he could do just about anything has a better chance of persuading other global actors to make concessions they otherwise would not make. - https://foreignpolicy.com/2025/01/07/madman-theory-international-relations-unpredictability/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2025/01/07/madman-theory-internati... Whether the leader of a superpower should be adopting such a strategy is a different debate ...
- rasz 2y ago
  Except he acts like he is trying to extract something from Ukraine, not putin.
- IAmGraydon 2y ago
  Everyone jumps to this every time a world leader does something crazy. I think it's a self-comforting mechanism. Convince yourself that they're just acting like an idiot but behind the scenes it's all under control. Thing is, sometimes world leaders actually are idiots.

29 points by colund 2y ago

Arnt 2y ago

There's a quote... I think it was Kissinger, but I can't find it now. "Don't issue an order unless you're prepared to back it up with force." See also: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43059411 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43059411

netsharc 2y ago
A Zelensky, Trump and Putin is really 2 wolves and a lamb meeting to decide what's for lunch. Or a better analogy may be a lamb, a wolf and its bitch.
- Arnt 2y ago
  That's what Putin thought at the beginning of the three day war. Not surprised if Trump thought so too.
rightbyte 2y ago
Wasn't it "Don't issue an order that wont be followed" or some such? I think it is a common saying even though Kissinger might have also said it.
- baybal2 2y ago
  [dead]

zkmon 2y ago

Whether they will be a part or not, it will go down in history how Europe forgot world history. This is exactly how colonialism worked in the 18th century. Put fights between brothers and then make deals with the one that is desperate for help. The great strategy was called divide and rule.

quantified 2y ago
Who are the brothers and who is pitting the fight in this case?
p2detar 2y ago
With brothers I'd assume you mean Ukraine and Russia? While something could be said about the role of US in starting the war, it is entirely a decision of Russia's leadership. There is a war, because Putin wanted a war. It is as simple as that. Europe's sins are extremely weak leadership at the moment and to some degree defragmentation of priorities. I have to give it to Putin, he did put an enormous amount of effort to break up the west. At the expense of Russians IMHO, but nevertheless results are evident. Something tells me though that however the Ukraine "deal" ends, it won't be the end of wartime in Europe. As far as I read the other day drafting continues in Russia across all Oblasts with large sums of money paid to people signing up. Appeasement never works. edit: typos
- drysine 2y ago
  >There is a war, because Putin wanted a war. Well, yeah, but it didn't start in 2022 -- the Ukraine was building up its military and the West was training them. But it didn't even start in 2014 -- have a look at this: Here is George Bush Sr. in 1991 talking in Kiev: "They [Americans] will not aid those who promote a suicidal nationalism based upon ethnic hatred." [0] But then Bush was gone and new presidents thought otherwise with their efforts culminating in 2014: "The night before the clashes, Right Sector called on all of its members to ready themselves for a "peace offensive" on 18 February. The Maidan People's Union also urged all concerned citizens to take part in the "peace offensive", which student unions had agreed to join as well. The Maidan Union reported on the morning of 18 February that columns of protesters would begin a march on parliament at 08:30. That morning, around 20,000 demonstrators marched on the parliament building as that body was set to consider opposition demands for a new constitution and government. Around 09:45, the demonstrators broke through the police barricade of several personnel-transport trucks near the building of the Central Officers' Club of Ukraine and pushed the cordon of police aside. The clashes started after some two dozen demonstrators moved a police vehicle blocking their path to parliament." [1] "Right Sector is a loosely defined coalition of right-wing to far-right Ukrainian nationalist organizations." [2] [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vkjxf76xRTw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vkjxf76xRTw [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolution_of_Dignity#Protest_march_and_initial_clashes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolution_of_Dignity#Protest_... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_Sector https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_Sector

ChocolateGod 2y ago

Europe will be the one that ultimately forks out for rebuilding Ukraine once the war is over. Perhaps it shouldn't.

polski-g 2y ago
There is no certainty this is the case. There is no European country that is operating at a surplus currently.

thisislife2 2y ago

An old adage about politicians is is to observe what they do, not what they say. This is more true with Trump as he follows, what is called the Mad Man strategy - The madman theory posits that a leader who behaves as if he could do just about anything has a better chance of persuading other global actors to make concessions they otherwise would not make. - https://foreignpolicy.com/2025/01/07/madman-theory-international-relations-unpredictability/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2025/01/07/madman-theory-internati... Whether the leader of a superpower should be adopting such a strategy is a different debate ...

rasz 2y ago
Except he acts like he is trying to extract something from Ukraine, not putin.
IAmGraydon 2y ago
Everyone jumps to this every time a world leader does something crazy. I think it's a self-comforting mechanism. Convince yourself that they're just acting like an idiot but behind the scenes it's all under control. Thing is, sometimes world leaders actually are idiots.