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I like the no-build approach, but I'm afraid the problem is bigger. For years, a new framework has appeared every week (it feels like every day) that promises

I like the no-build approach, but I'm afraid the problem is bigger. For years, a new framework has appeared every week (it feels like every day) that promises to solve all problems with the latest buzzwords. The mere fact that this happens shows that today's web development suffers from a plethora of unsolved fundamental problems. Instead of fighting a problem with workarounds (and thus new problems), it would be nice if the community would sit down and ask itself how we can create a future that makes frameworks obsolete. Sometimes I get the impression that we have more of a social problem than a technical one. If browser vendors, developers, managers, corporations, startups, freelancers and everyone else involved sat down at a table and talked constructively with each other, things would certainly be possible that would save everyone a lot of work, or am I wrong?

root_axis 2y ago
> it would be nice if the community would sit down and ask itself how we can create a future that makes frameworks obsolete. The community is not an entity, it can't sit down and ask itself things, new ideas appear and the good ones get adopted. You can't prevent the existence of alternative approaches and ideas.
thesephi 2y ago
thank you for your approval of the 'no build' approach. We don't have to necessarily discuss the "framework perspective" of this topic - this all is more like a concept, a "lego mashup" of several standards: - import map: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTML/Element/script/type/importmap https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTML/Element/sc... - TypeScript runtime: https://www.reddit.com/r/typescript/comments/y8tsav/comment/it2grpo/ https://www.reddit.com/r/typescript/comments/y8tsav/comment/... - SSR & Hydration: https://zustand.docs.pmnd.rs/guides/ssr-and-hydration https://zustand.docs.pmnd.rs/guides/ssr-and-hydration So even without naming a new framework, one can simply pick up the "base concepts" above and mix them together, and have something similar :) (of course as @root_axis mentioned: sooner or later any concept materializes as a "framework" or at least a "library" - so while we unfortunately can't change the nature of society, we can actively choose what we use & what we don't use. Psss: tbh i'm not really a framework person myself haha)
bsimpson 2y ago
It's also a thorny political problem. Remember that Dart started as an attempt to evolve web programming past some of the perceived deficiencies of JavaScript. It came out of Google, who also maintains a significant share of the web platform via Chrome. There were a bunch of snarky comments about Google trying to colonize the web and force its new language upon everyone. Fast forward a decade+: now most professional web dev is done in TypeScript, a Microsoft language that's backwards compatible with JavaScript. JavaScript itself has evolved to address some of the complaints of the past. Dart is now the VM embedded in Flutter runtime, and has sworn off ever being baked into a browser. There are two methods that have been successful at changing the web: - Spend countless manhours and calendar years building consensus among dozens of people through the standardization process, and hope at the end of the day that your pet proposal is one of the few that survive. There are many awesome proposals that have never made it out of committee. or - Build a thing that's compatible with the existing platform (e.g. React, CoffeeScript, etc.), and get a critical mass to adopt it organically, until is has the influence that the web platform will change to meet the demand.

root_axis 2y ago

> it would be nice if the community would sit down and ask itself how we can create a future that makes frameworks obsolete. The community is not an entity, it can't sit down and ask itself things, new ideas appear and the good ones get adopted. You can't prevent the existence of alternative approaches and ideas.

thesephi 2y ago

thank you for your approval of the 'no build' approach. We don't have to necessarily discuss the "framework perspective" of this topic - this all is more like a concept, a "lego mashup" of several standards: - import map: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTML/Element/script/type/importmap https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTML/Element/sc... - TypeScript runtime: https://www.reddit.com/r/typescript/comments/y8tsav/comment/it2grpo/ https://www.reddit.com/r/typescript/comments/y8tsav/comment/... - SSR & Hydration: https://zustand.docs.pmnd.rs/guides/ssr-and-hydration https://zustand.docs.pmnd.rs/guides/ssr-and-hydration So even without naming a new framework, one can simply pick up the "base concepts" above and mix them together, and have something similar :) (of course as @root_axis mentioned: sooner or later any concept materializes as a "framework" or at least a "library" - so while we unfortunately can't change the nature of society, we can actively choose what we use & what we don't use. Psss: tbh i'm not really a framework person myself haha)

bsimpson 2y ago

It's also a thorny political problem. Remember that Dart started as an attempt to evolve web programming past some of the perceived deficiencies of JavaScript. It came out of Google, who also maintains a significant share of the web platform via Chrome. There were a bunch of snarky comments about Google trying to colonize the web and force its new language upon everyone. Fast forward a decade+: now most professional web dev is done in TypeScript, a Microsoft language that's backwards compatible with JavaScript. JavaScript itself has evolved to address some of the complaints of the past. Dart is now the VM embedded in Flutter runtime, and has sworn off ever being baked into a browser. There are two methods that have been successful at changing the web: - Spend countless manhours and calendar years building consensus among dozens of people through the standardization process, and hope at the end of the day that your pet proposal is one of the few that survive. There are many awesome proposals that have never made it out of committee. or - Build a thing that's compatible with the existing platform (e.g. React, CoffeeScript, etc.), and get a critical mass to adopt it organically, until is has the influence that the web platform will change to meet the demand.