8 ms·

With respect, I find your perspective hard to believe because I don't buy that you would not yourself call that very same number if something truly drastic happ

With respect, I find your perspective hard to believe because I don't buy that you would not yourself call that very same number if something truly drastic happened to you. I have a difficult time believing any detractors of 911, for that matter, would truly actually abide by that standard. Implying first responders are thugs irks me too, I'm unsure if you've considered the true proportion of cases they respond to that are time sensitive (during which, information parity is low). You could, of course, assert that this means they ought to not respond in the first place - but I think you would find there are a wide range of scenarios that strictly require a rapid and forceful response due to the potential for many victims to be involved (bolstered by gun ownership) with little time to actually validate the circumstances without incurring casualties. Accidents are unacceptable but our world is complicated and sometimes requires we meet lack of information with immediate action. That is not to say accidents are permissible, but the men putting their lives in harms way to respond to these incidents don't actually know what's occurring either. You seem to be fairly opinionated about what the system should or should not do, what have you personally done to help improve the conversion ratio between false calls and accidents? I understand this is theoretically ad hominem but I'm personally using it as a heuristic as to the likelihood that your perspective is a luxury belief. We agree that close calls should not be that close, but it's not very different from shaking your fist at the sky unless you actually happen to work in this space (in which case I'm actually very interested in hearing your thoughts). I don't mean to be rude, I'm just being blunt because I believe you're washing over some extremely difficult problems and have little to bring to the table - which is by definition unproductive.

tptacek 2y ago
I mostly agree with this, and also think the "magic telephone number" is a very message-boardy kind of argument, sort of like when software developers are aghast at the idea that the criminal justice system adjudicates "intent" ("you can't read people's minds!"). I think outside of message boards, people generally do want a phone number they can call during an armed robbery.
potato3732842 2y ago
Local swat teams should not be a thing. They're the human resources equivilent of extraneous MRAPs. The idea that we dispatch a bunch of thugs larping as infantry (because let's be real that's what swat teams are) based on a single piece of un-corroborated intelligence from a source of unknown quality (i.e. no preexisting reason to believe they're legit) would not pass muster in any situation with "real stakes" therefore it's not ok for local police departments to act that way. There needs to be some check. Swat teams weren't even a common thing until the 80s. Society isn't gonna collapse without them. And their response times aren't that great anyway. Send a normal officer. Any situation demanding a real swat team probably needs to be triaged anyway.
- tptacek 2y ago
  You're fixating on the name "Swatting". The technique works whether or not you get an according-to-Hoyle SWAT team called.
  - ryandrake 2y ago
    Whatever word you use for it, a single, often anonymous, phone call should not directly and immediately result in an armed assault on an address.
    - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
      > a single, often anonymous, phone call should not directly and immediately result in an armed assault on an address It wasn’t anonymous. The teenager impersonated an officer.
ryandrake 2y ago
> With respect, I find your perspective hard to believe because I don't buy that you would not yourself call that very same number if something truly drastic happened to you. I have a difficult time believing any detractors of 911, for that matter, would truly actually abide by that standard. I don't know if I would dare call the police, for any reason. Inviting poorly-trained, on-edge, armed brutes into your home who have legal immunity from anything they do, who do not have to justify escalation to violence, are not held accountable for inappropriate escalation... I don't know if I like the odds. I might just roll the dice with the home invader and hope he just wants my TV.
- tptacek 2y ago
  As someone deeply involved in local politics and in close touch with a large number of neighbors across one of the bluest, police-skeptical municipalities in the United States: this is a message board trope. Everybody expects to be able to call the police. You might, if someone is being their best self, get some hesitation before a call about someone playing at the park who doesn't look like they belong there. Someone trying car doors? 911. You'd be excoriated for seeing something like that and not calling. This is just not a real thing, this idea that normal people will never call the police under any circumstances. It's even less the case as you go into majority-black neighborhoods, where one of their big complaints is that the police don't come when they call, only when they're walking down the street. They're being actively victimized police, and they're still upset that it's not easier to summon them. I am speaking positively here, not normatively.
  - butter999 2y ago
    People claiming on HN they won't call the cops might be all talk, I can't possibly know, but if you don't know anyone who won't call the police, you don't know people low on the socioeconomic ladder. And that's fine, there's no shame in that. But people who are frequent harassed by police - yeah, they don't call the police. Ask a homeless person how they're treated by police and whether they would call 911.
    - 2y ago

tptacek 2y ago

I mostly agree with this, and also think the "magic telephone number" is a very message-boardy kind of argument, sort of like when software developers are aghast at the idea that the criminal justice system adjudicates "intent" ("you can't read people's minds!"). I think outside of message boards, people generally do want a phone number they can call during an armed robbery.

potato3732842 2y ago

Local swat teams should not be a thing. They're the human resources equivilent of extraneous MRAPs. The idea that we dispatch a bunch of thugs larping as infantry (because let's be real that's what swat teams are) based on a single piece of un-corroborated intelligence from a source of unknown quality (i.e. no preexisting reason to believe they're legit) would not pass muster in any situation with "real stakes" therefore it's not ok for local police departments to act that way. There needs to be some check. Swat teams weren't even a common thing until the 80s. Society isn't gonna collapse without them. And their response times aren't that great anyway. Send a normal officer. Any situation demanding a real swat team probably needs to be triaged anyway.

tptacek 2y ago
You're fixating on the name "Swatting". The technique works whether or not you get an according-to-Hoyle SWAT team called.
- ryandrake 2y ago
  Whatever word you use for it, a single, often anonymous, phone call should not directly and immediately result in an armed assault on an address.
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > a single, often anonymous, phone call should not directly and immediately result in an armed assault on an address It wasn’t anonymous. The teenager impersonated an officer.

ryandrake 2y ago

> With respect, I find your perspective hard to believe because I don't buy that you would not yourself call that very same number if something truly drastic happened to you. I have a difficult time believing any detractors of 911, for that matter, would truly actually abide by that standard. I don't know if I would dare call the police, for any reason. Inviting poorly-trained, on-edge, armed brutes into your home who have legal immunity from anything they do, who do not have to justify escalation to violence, are not held accountable for inappropriate escalation... I don't know if I like the odds. I might just roll the dice with the home invader and hope he just wants my TV.

tptacek 2y ago
As someone deeply involved in local politics and in close touch with a large number of neighbors across one of the bluest, police-skeptical municipalities in the United States: this is a message board trope. Everybody expects to be able to call the police. You might, if someone is being their best self, get some hesitation before a call about someone playing at the park who doesn't look like they belong there. Someone trying car doors? 911. You'd be excoriated for seeing something like that and not calling. This is just not a real thing, this idea that normal people will never call the police under any circumstances. It's even less the case as you go into majority-black neighborhoods, where one of their big complaints is that the police don't come when they call, only when they're walking down the street. They're being actively victimized police, and they're still upset that it's not easier to summon them. I am speaking positively here, not normatively.
- butter999 2y ago
  People claiming on HN they won't call the cops might be all talk, I can't possibly know, but if you don't know anyone who won't call the police, you don't know people low on the socioeconomic ladder. And that's fine, there's no shame in that. But people who are frequent harassed by police - yeah, they don't call the police. Ask a homeless person how they're treated by police and whether they would call 911.
  - 2y ago