6 ms·

This is so disheartening. I thought we were making progress in the anti-surveillance privacy narrative, but this says otherwise. As a UK citizen, is there anyth

This is so disheartening. I thought we were making progress in the anti-surveillance privacy narrative, but this says otherwise. As a UK citizen, is there anything I can do to dissuade this? edit: typo

csmattryder 2y ago
> I thought we were making progress in the anti-surveillance privacy na[rra]tive What lead to to believe that? The Conservatives and Conservative-Continuity governments both agree that our data simply must be in the hands of the police, DEFRA, and your local council. RIPA will never be repealed and only strengthened.
- snapcaster 2y ago
  I don't disagree with your analysis but i wouldn't be so fatalistic. This stuff _isn't_ inevitable and i think it's possible to win people over to our side. Things can change for the better, but they won't unless people who care don't give up
  - csmattryder 2y ago
    Ahh, I used to have that opinion, but I've encountered too many "It's fine if they want it, I've got nothing to hide" people. (They never give you their Facebook password if you ask, though. Funny, that.) Change what you can, I say, VPN on the network device.
    - dijksterhuis 2y ago
      focus on the John Oliver dick pic argument. https://www.wired.com/2015/04/john-oliver-edward-snowden-dick-pics/ https://www.wired.com/2015/04/john-oliver-edward-snowden-dic... > When Oliver shows Snowden evidence that all typical Americans care about is whether the government can see our "dick pics," he encourages Snowden to go through a list of every government surveillance program and explain its capabilities in terms of access to "dick pics."
      - chupasaurus 2y ago
        One of my all-time favorites: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41595924 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41595924
    - snapcaster 2y ago
      Yeah totally see your point, i'm just not ready to give up yet
    - hyperdimension 2y ago
      I favorites this comment a while ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40228359 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40228359
maeil 2y ago
> As a UK citizen, is there anything I can do to dissuade this? If you voted for this Tory-lite government, then you can stop voting for any future Tory-lite governments. If you did not, there's not much you can do in practice without devoting your life to it.
- dead_gunslinger 2y ago
  [dead]
- galangalalgol 2y ago
  Coupd protest on weekends and holidays as a hobby, bring a Bluetooth speaker and blast the kinks.
  - gambiting 2y ago
    Well, in the UK just planning a non-violent protest can get you 5 years in prison as many people have already discovered. Protesting has been pretty much made illegal by a very broad legislation that defines any protest that causes "disruption" as illegal - what "disruption" means is up to interpretation of course.
    - bluGill 2y ago
      Which just means you need a large group to protest. They can arrest 10,000 people no problem, but get several million together and you have an army. Best is to get some of the actually army/police with you so that when (not if!) they try to get violent you can make it clear this is a revolution they won't win. I hope it never reaches the above level, but always remember that remains an option.
      - gambiting 2y ago
        Yeah but to get a million people together you need to plan for it first, and that's where they get you :P It's honestly shocking the state of things in the UK in that regard. I'm surprised there isn't more outrage around it, even the people I know who used to say they hate the Just Stop Oil protesters expressed shock that they've been given 5 years for just talking about a protest, not actually doing it.
snapcaster 2y ago
In my mind, the only way to beat these efforts for good is to win hearts and minds of the larger public. Currently because only weirdos like us care about this stuff, we have to constantly be on top of these things and writing letters making posts etc. Overall i agree with you, it is really disheartening. That being said, i've made progress with my family on valuing privacy and the dangers of surveillance. I think people might be changing their minds slowly but still lots of work to do. A breakthrough with my sisters was when abortion was threatened here in the states. Mentioned to them that it would be easy for authorities to enforce abortion punishments by subpoenaing data from menstruation cycle tracker apps. This kind of "clicked" for them and they became more open to the other parts (not given ratukan or whatever their purchase history, etc. etc.)
- scarface_74 2y ago
  Thought experiment: let’s say that Trump said that he thinks Apple is helping hide illegal immigrants because they are communicating with each other over channels that ICE can’t decrypt, how much pressure do you think he could put on legislatures to pass a law here? Now let’s say that some Republican Senators and Representatives were ethically opposed to but then threatened to be primaried and President Musk said he would throw all of his money behind a potential opponent, how long do you think it would take a law to be passed? Even without a law, we already see that Cook will willingly bend a knee to Trump as will Google. Right now in my home state the governor was trying to get a law passed banning Western Union from allowing illegal immigrants from sending money overseas.
  - snapcaster 2y ago
    I'm not sure what the hypothesis is in your experiment, i agree that all that stuff is really bad
    - scarface_74 2y ago
      That all it takes is the co-presidents to say that by giving up your freedom we can get rid of those “evil illegal immigrants” and enough people will give up their rights.
Kenji 2y ago
[dead]
brandon272 2y ago
> I thought we were making progress in the anti-surveillance privacy narrative, but this says otherwise. I think we are perhaps the lowest point ever in terms of anti-surveillance efforts. There seems to be bipartisan effort among many (most?) western governments that the government should have unfettered access to all data, regardless of any reasonable expectation of privacy. Encryption seems barely tolerated these days. Governments are insisting on backdoors, they are making it illegal in some cases for companies to even discuss what is going on or that monitoring is happening. We barely know what is going on with the programs and efforts that get leaked to the media, much less the programs that operate in total secret.
cbeach 2y ago
Let's start supporting parties that have principles. And stop making excuses for parties that don't (i.e. Labour, Lib Dems and Conservatives). At the moment, the UK public (and media) considers it a sport to disparage and smear parties like Reform, whose leaders want to shrink the power and over-reach of the state. We are so concerned with appearing virtuous and internationally generous, we cannot be seen to align with a party that wants to put UK citizens first (border security? deporting dangerous criminals back to their home nation? gasp, how could we be so ghastly!) This self-defeating attitude needs to change if we want a better future for our children.
- rvz 2y ago
  > Let's start supporting parties that have principles. The problem is that there are none. The correct assessment of all these political parties is that by default, they all cannot be trusted. Especially both labour and the conservatives. > This self-defeating attitude needs to change if we want a better future for our children. Yes. The second problem is that the United Kingdom is incapable to changing itself historically and is fundamentally destined to never be open to change.
isaacremuant 2y ago
Probably helps if the next time they try to remove the rights of large segments of the populace based on medical choices, lock people down, track them and propose vaccine passports, that you realize where everything is headed and oppose it vocally. It's always through the appearance of good intentions and a public that pushes for whatever narrative they're fed that they normalize this. People love and want more of this, not less.
TacticalCoder 2y ago
[dead]
buyucu 2y ago
vote for people who are anti surveillance.
- kandesbunzler 2y ago
  so right wing?
  - buyucu 2y ago
    no idea, UK is not important enough to follow their politics. vote for whoever supports privacy.

csmattryder 2y ago

> I thought we were making progress in the anti-surveillance privacy na[rra]tive What lead to to believe that? The Conservatives and Conservative-Continuity governments both agree that our data simply must be in the hands of the police, DEFRA, and your local council. RIPA will never be repealed and only strengthened.

snapcaster 2y ago
I don't disagree with your analysis but i wouldn't be so fatalistic. This stuff _isn't_ inevitable and i think it's possible to win people over to our side. Things can change for the better, but they won't unless people who care don't give up
- csmattryder 2y ago
  Ahh, I used to have that opinion, but I've encountered too many "It's fine if they want it, I've got nothing to hide" people. (They never give you their Facebook password if you ask, though. Funny, that.) Change what you can, I say, VPN on the network device.
  - dijksterhuis 2y ago
    focus on the John Oliver dick pic argument. https://www.wired.com/2015/04/john-oliver-edward-snowden-dick-pics/ https://www.wired.com/2015/04/john-oliver-edward-snowden-dic... > When Oliver shows Snowden evidence that all typical Americans care about is whether the government can see our "dick pics," he encourages Snowden to go through a list of every government surveillance program and explain its capabilities in terms of access to "dick pics."
    - chupasaurus 2y ago
      One of my all-time favorites: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41595924 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41595924
  - snapcaster 2y ago
    Yeah totally see your point, i'm just not ready to give up yet
  - hyperdimension 2y ago
    I favorites this comment a while ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40228359 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40228359

maeil 2y ago

> As a UK citizen, is there anything I can do to dissuade this? If you voted for this Tory-lite government, then you can stop voting for any future Tory-lite governments. If you did not, there's not much you can do in practice without devoting your life to it.

dead_gunslinger 2y ago
[dead]
galangalalgol 2y ago
Coupd protest on weekends and holidays as a hobby, bring a Bluetooth speaker and blast the kinks.
- gambiting 2y ago
  Well, in the UK just planning a non-violent protest can get you 5 years in prison as many people have already discovered. Protesting has been pretty much made illegal by a very broad legislation that defines any protest that causes "disruption" as illegal - what "disruption" means is up to interpretation of course.
  - bluGill 2y ago
    Which just means you need a large group to protest. They can arrest 10,000 people no problem, but get several million together and you have an army. Best is to get some of the actually army/police with you so that when (not if!) they try to get violent you can make it clear this is a revolution they won't win. I hope it never reaches the above level, but always remember that remains an option.
    - gambiting 2y ago
      Yeah but to get a million people together you need to plan for it first, and that's where they get you :P It's honestly shocking the state of things in the UK in that regard. I'm surprised there isn't more outrage around it, even the people I know who used to say they hate the Just Stop Oil protesters expressed shock that they've been given 5 years for just talking about a protest, not actually doing it.

snapcaster 2y ago

In my mind, the only way to beat these efforts for good is to win hearts and minds of the larger public. Currently because only weirdos like us care about this stuff, we have to constantly be on top of these things and writing letters making posts etc. Overall i agree with you, it is really disheartening. That being said, i've made progress with my family on valuing privacy and the dangers of surveillance. I think people might be changing their minds slowly but still lots of work to do. A breakthrough with my sisters was when abortion was threatened here in the states. Mentioned to them that it would be easy for authorities to enforce abortion punishments by subpoenaing data from menstruation cycle tracker apps. This kind of "clicked" for them and they became more open to the other parts (not given ratukan or whatever their purchase history, etc. etc.)

scarface_74 2y ago
Thought experiment: let’s say that Trump said that he thinks Apple is helping hide illegal immigrants because they are communicating with each other over channels that ICE can’t decrypt, how much pressure do you think he could put on legislatures to pass a law here? Now let’s say that some Republican Senators and Representatives were ethically opposed to but then threatened to be primaried and President Musk said he would throw all of his money behind a potential opponent, how long do you think it would take a law to be passed? Even without a law, we already see that Cook will willingly bend a knee to Trump as will Google. Right now in my home state the governor was trying to get a law passed banning Western Union from allowing illegal immigrants from sending money overseas.
- snapcaster 2y ago
  I'm not sure what the hypothesis is in your experiment, i agree that all that stuff is really bad
  - scarface_74 2y ago
    That all it takes is the co-presidents to say that by giving up your freedom we can get rid of those “evil illegal immigrants” and enough people will give up their rights.

Kenji 2y ago

[dead]

brandon272 2y ago

> I thought we were making progress in the anti-surveillance privacy narrative, but this says otherwise. I think we are perhaps the lowest point ever in terms of anti-surveillance efforts. There seems to be bipartisan effort among many (most?) western governments that the government should have unfettered access to all data, regardless of any reasonable expectation of privacy. Encryption seems barely tolerated these days. Governments are insisting on backdoors, they are making it illegal in some cases for companies to even discuss what is going on or that monitoring is happening. We barely know what is going on with the programs and efforts that get leaked to the media, much less the programs that operate in total secret.

cbeach 2y ago

Let's start supporting parties that have principles. And stop making excuses for parties that don't (i.e. Labour, Lib Dems and Conservatives). At the moment, the UK public (and media) considers it a sport to disparage and smear parties like Reform, whose leaders want to shrink the power and over-reach of the state. We are so concerned with appearing virtuous and internationally generous, we cannot be seen to align with a party that wants to put UK citizens first (border security? deporting dangerous criminals back to their home nation? gasp, how could we be so ghastly!) This self-defeating attitude needs to change if we want a better future for our children.

rvz 2y ago
> Let's start supporting parties that have principles. The problem is that there are none. The correct assessment of all these political parties is that by default, they all cannot be trusted. Especially both labour and the conservatives. > This self-defeating attitude needs to change if we want a better future for our children. Yes. The second problem is that the United Kingdom is incapable to changing itself historically and is fundamentally destined to never be open to change.

isaacremuant 2y ago

Probably helps if the next time they try to remove the rights of large segments of the populace based on medical choices, lock people down, track them and propose vaccine passports, that you realize where everything is headed and oppose it vocally. It's always through the appearance of good intentions and a public that pushes for whatever narrative they're fed that they normalize this. People love and want more of this, not less.

TacticalCoder 2y ago

[dead]

buyucu 2y ago

vote for people who are anti surveillance.

kandesbunzler 2y ago
so right wing?
- buyucu 2y ago
  no idea, UK is not important enough to follow their politics. vote for whoever supports privacy.