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> You believe Elon Musk is somehow showing support for the National-Socialist party of the German working class? No, which is why nobody but people who want to

> You believe Elon Musk is somehow showing support for the National-Socialist party of the German working class? No, which is why nobody but people who want to downplay say this stuff. This is the second comment of this kind I saw. He's doing the Hitler salute, with a snarl, once to the crowd and once to Trump. He has no clue who Hitler is or what he did, just like he has no clue what RPC are, or what item level requirements in Path of Exile 2 mean, but that doesn't change what we see with our own eyes.

rofo1 2y ago
What is there to downplay? This is why engagement hunters on Twitter/X.com made a side by side comparison of "Democrats doing Nazi salute" over the years, and there are like 10 pictures there doing the same exact thing. It would be as bizarre to say those people were supporting NAZI Germany, too.
- computerthings 2y ago
  > It would be as bizarre to say those people were supporting NAZI Germany, too. The person you replied to said "nazi salute". In context, it's clear the gesture is meant. Everything else comes solely from you. And far-right groups everywhere are totally celebrating it by the way, you're aware of that, right? In a way they never did and wouldn't celebrate some random "gotcha" photo of a Democrat that has nothing to do with them. So you're just underlining the point.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - rofo1 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - computerthings 2y ago
      Musk is too ignorant of it to support or not support "Nazi Germany", flat out. But he's constantly boosting actual Neo-Nazis, agreeing with the white replacement stuff, endorsed the AfD -- again, without knowing what that means -- and now he's snarling, and saluting the audience and Trump. > Georgios Katidis (Greek: Γεώργιος Κατίδης; born 12 February 1993) is a Greek professional footballer who plays as an attacking midfielder. He is best known for performing a Nazi salute after scoring a game-winning goal in 2013, which led to his permanent suspension from every level of the Greece national team and his suspension from AEK Athens for the remainder of the 2013 season. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgios_Katidis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgios_Katidis Note how the article doesn't even mention what he thinks about "NAZI Germany", because it doesn't matter. It's a Hitler salute. And that's a soccer player, not someone rambling about fake news on a platform they bought where they also constantly say "hmm, interesting" to the most vile, demented nazi bullshit, and now running a "department of government efficiency". This deserves a LOT more scrutiny, at the inauguration of a President who once said he could shoot people in broad daylight on Times Square, and his supporters wouldn't mind. > This is one of the many reasons Democrats lost. This type of propaganda will not work anymore. What "kind of propaganda"? That you keep repeating I claim Elon Musk "supports Nazi Germany", which doesn't exist since 1945? What are you on about? This is why people come to the realization that some people are really just defending this shit on autopilot and we must not wait for their approval to resist fascism.
    - cauch 2y ago
      You have the opinion that Musk's gesture was perfectly innocent. Others don't think so. It's your opinion, and it's a valid hypothesis. But the other opinions are as valid as yours. They are implying that Musk is not nice and don't give him the benefice of the doubt. You are implying that people criticizing Musk are not nice, and don't give them the benefice of the doubt. The parallel with "democrats doing Nazi salute" is pretty poor: of course people will not assume it was the intention for someone who has, by the ideas they defend and by their acts, demonstrated they are strongly opposed to the Nazi ideas. But it is not the case here. On my side, I think it is very difficult to believe that Musk has done it 100% innocently. Musk is a troll, and it was a perfect opportunity to "trigger" people while pretending he did it innocently. I'm not sure how sympathetic he is with Nazi ideas (but I would not be surprised he would be sympathetic to the core concepts, he is promoting the same family of ideas grounded in the same roots), but I think it is very much plausible that he don't consider the Nazi salute dirty enough, so that he can use it to troll with despite the consequences (think of the message it sends to real Nazi sympathizers), which is already pretty bad. The views he has expressed otherwise (support to AfD, conspiracy theory, ...) just reinforce the idea that "100% innocently" is unlikely.
      - rofo1 2y ago
        > The parallel with "democrats doing Nazi salute" is pretty poor: of course people will not assume it was the intention for someone who has, by the ideas they defend and by their acts, demonstrated they are strongly opposed to the Nazi ideas. But it is not the case here. You have to prove that. You cannot just randomly keep saying it as a starting position because you hope nobody will call that out. He has shown support for free markets, reducing regulations, reducing taxes/gov. spending (within budget and small at that) and for limited government in general. How is that support for the National-Socialists? > I'm not sure how sympathetic he is with Nazi ideas (but I would not be surprised he would be sympathetic to the core concepts, he is promoting the same family of ideas grounded in the same roots), Again, you have to prove this. Be concrete: which ideas precisely? Which "concepts", which "family"?
        cauch 2y ago
        I had this kind of discussions before but unfortunately it is usually a waste of time, as any consensus amongst experts is waved away. > He has shown support for free markets, reducing regulations, reducing taxes/gov. spending (within budget and small at that) and for limited government in general. How is that support for the National-Socialists? I think this sentence already is quite telling. For example, Nazi privatized the German industry massively in the 30s, and there was a full wing of the Nazi party defending free markets and low government, with people like for example Walther Funk. They also had the support of big private industry leaders like Friedrich Thyssen. The opposed wing of the party, containing for example Göring, who were advocating for a deeper control by the state on economy in order to build up the army, got the favor of Hitler just before the war. But it does not mean that the Nazi ideology was incompatible with pro free market, low regulations and low government ideals: there were plenty of proper Nazi that were openly defending these ideals. > Which "concepts", which "family"? Well, that is usually where the well is poisoned. For example, AfD in Germany is widely recognised as grounded in Nazi values (the fact that it is the relevant party that attracts the most people who consider themselves as proper Nazi is a very good clue: why the self-recognized Nazi likes this party so much if this party does not share any of their values?). But then, it is easy to just say "na-ah, they have nothing to do with Nazi values", even if it does not correspond to the simple facts. Yet, Musk has recently openly supported this party. There are plenty of political party in Germany and in Europe. He could have not supported any party, the same way he did not in France, in Spain, in Italy, ... or he could have defended values, or he could have defended other parties that are basically pushing for the same economic policies that Musk is probably interested in. It is difficult to understand why Musk is suddenly entering the debate JUST to defend parties with strong nationalistic and xenophobic roots (not used as an insult, it's just a fact of what their policies are) if Musk does not share these values, and these values are indeed the values shared by the Nazi party.
- _DeadFred_ 2y ago
  10 out of context pictures are not the exact same as video of someone doing a full on Nazi salute in 100% form from start to end, twice. Show me a video of a Dem doing that...

rofo1 2y ago

What is there to downplay? This is why engagement hunters on Twitter/X.com made a side by side comparison of "Democrats doing Nazi salute" over the years, and there are like 10 pictures there doing the same exact thing. It would be as bizarre to say those people were supporting NAZI Germany, too.

computerthings 2y ago
> It would be as bizarre to say those people were supporting NAZI Germany, too. The person you replied to said "nazi salute". In context, it's clear the gesture is meant. Everything else comes solely from you. And far-right groups everywhere are totally celebrating it by the way, you're aware of that, right? In a way they never did and wouldn't celebrate some random "gotcha" photo of a Democrat that has nothing to do with them. So you're just underlining the point.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- rofo1 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - computerthings 2y ago
    Musk is too ignorant of it to support or not support "Nazi Germany", flat out. But he's constantly boosting actual Neo-Nazis, agreeing with the white replacement stuff, endorsed the AfD -- again, without knowing what that means -- and now he's snarling, and saluting the audience and Trump. > Georgios Katidis (Greek: Γεώργιος Κατίδης; born 12 February 1993) is a Greek professional footballer who plays as an attacking midfielder. He is best known for performing a Nazi salute after scoring a game-winning goal in 2013, which led to his permanent suspension from every level of the Greece national team and his suspension from AEK Athens for the remainder of the 2013 season. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgios_Katidis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgios_Katidis Note how the article doesn't even mention what he thinks about "NAZI Germany", because it doesn't matter. It's a Hitler salute. And that's a soccer player, not someone rambling about fake news on a platform they bought where they also constantly say "hmm, interesting" to the most vile, demented nazi bullshit, and now running a "department of government efficiency". This deserves a LOT more scrutiny, at the inauguration of a President who once said he could shoot people in broad daylight on Times Square, and his supporters wouldn't mind. > This is one of the many reasons Democrats lost. This type of propaganda will not work anymore. What "kind of propaganda"? That you keep repeating I claim Elon Musk "supports Nazi Germany", which doesn't exist since 1945? What are you on about? This is why people come to the realization that some people are really just defending this shit on autopilot and we must not wait for their approval to resist fascism.
  - cauch 2y ago
    You have the opinion that Musk's gesture was perfectly innocent. Others don't think so. It's your opinion, and it's a valid hypothesis. But the other opinions are as valid as yours. They are implying that Musk is not nice and don't give him the benefice of the doubt. You are implying that people criticizing Musk are not nice, and don't give them the benefice of the doubt. The parallel with "democrats doing Nazi salute" is pretty poor: of course people will not assume it was the intention for someone who has, by the ideas they defend and by their acts, demonstrated they are strongly opposed to the Nazi ideas. But it is not the case here. On my side, I think it is very difficult to believe that Musk has done it 100% innocently. Musk is a troll, and it was a perfect opportunity to "trigger" people while pretending he did it innocently. I'm not sure how sympathetic he is with Nazi ideas (but I would not be surprised he would be sympathetic to the core concepts, he is promoting the same family of ideas grounded in the same roots), but I think it is very much plausible that he don't consider the Nazi salute dirty enough, so that he can use it to troll with despite the consequences (think of the message it sends to real Nazi sympathizers), which is already pretty bad. The views he has expressed otherwise (support to AfD, conspiracy theory, ...) just reinforce the idea that "100% innocently" is unlikely.
    - rofo1 2y ago
      > The parallel with "democrats doing Nazi salute" is pretty poor: of course people will not assume it was the intention for someone who has, by the ideas they defend and by their acts, demonstrated they are strongly opposed to the Nazi ideas. But it is not the case here. You have to prove that. You cannot just randomly keep saying it as a starting position because you hope nobody will call that out. He has shown support for free markets, reducing regulations, reducing taxes/gov. spending (within budget and small at that) and for limited government in general. How is that support for the National-Socialists? > I'm not sure how sympathetic he is with Nazi ideas (but I would not be surprised he would be sympathetic to the core concepts, he is promoting the same family of ideas grounded in the same roots), Again, you have to prove this. Be concrete: which ideas precisely? Which "concepts", which "family"?
      - cauch 2y ago
        I had this kind of discussions before but unfortunately it is usually a waste of time, as any consensus amongst experts is waved away. > He has shown support for free markets, reducing regulations, reducing taxes/gov. spending (within budget and small at that) and for limited government in general. How is that support for the National-Socialists? I think this sentence already is quite telling. For example, Nazi privatized the German industry massively in the 30s, and there was a full wing of the Nazi party defending free markets and low government, with people like for example Walther Funk. They also had the support of big private industry leaders like Friedrich Thyssen. The opposed wing of the party, containing for example Göring, who were advocating for a deeper control by the state on economy in order to build up the army, got the favor of Hitler just before the war. But it does not mean that the Nazi ideology was incompatible with pro free market, low regulations and low government ideals: there were plenty of proper Nazi that were openly defending these ideals. > Which "concepts", which "family"? Well, that is usually where the well is poisoned. For example, AfD in Germany is widely recognised as grounded in Nazi values (the fact that it is the relevant party that attracts the most people who consider themselves as proper Nazi is a very good clue: why the self-recognized Nazi likes this party so much if this party does not share any of their values?). But then, it is easy to just say "na-ah, they have nothing to do with Nazi values", even if it does not correspond to the simple facts. Yet, Musk has recently openly supported this party. There are plenty of political party in Germany and in Europe. He could have not supported any party, the same way he did not in France, in Spain, in Italy, ... or he could have defended values, or he could have defended other parties that are basically pushing for the same economic policies that Musk is probably interested in. It is difficult to understand why Musk is suddenly entering the debate JUST to defend parties with strong nationalistic and xenophobic roots (not used as an insult, it's just a fact of what their policies are) if Musk does not share these values, and these values are indeed the values shared by the Nazi party.
_DeadFred_ 2y ago
10 out of context pictures are not the exact same as video of someone doing a full on Nazi salute in 100% form from start to end, twice. Show me a video of a Dem doing that...