7 ms·

I read the main problem with hiring chip factory workers in Arizona was the factory just didnt pay enough for the long hours demanded. I looked up the median sa

I read the main problem with hiring chip factory workers in Arizona was the factory just didnt pay enough for the long hours demanded. I looked up the median salary and its only 50k so I'm assuming it's not crazy skilled labor (e.g. brain drain). Taiwanese workers just seem more willing to do it.

rkagerer 2y ago
...just seem more willing to do it That's why manufacturing offshored in the first place, companies feel they're receiving better value for money on wages elsewhere for this kind of work (and these days not to mention more & larger facilities, proximity to component sources, and a strong ecosystem of supporting and complimentary facilities).
- Teever 2y ago
  I think that's obviously a major part of it but it ignores other stuff like lax environmental and safety standards. It would be interesting to see how much of the economic advantage of off-shoring is due to lower wages due intrinsic to lower cost of living vs stuff like ignoring/bribing foreign officials or non-existent environmenta/safety standards that objectively should exist.
- hintymad 2y ago
  Personally I won't mind paying more to buy manufactured goods. My mom told me that a pair of sneakers before the offshoring back in the late 80s usually cost more than $300 in today's dollars. Yes, it was expensive, but I would just buy fewer and use the one for longer time. The reason is that in the long run the manufacturing cost would get lower due to increased efficiency, and loss of supply chain is detrimental to the entire country - and our living expenses will increase overall. Case in point, how much tax do we have to pay and how much inflation do we have to suffer in order to build those super expensive weapons? Part of the reasons that we had $20K toilet and $100 screws is that we simply don't have large enough supply chain to offset the cost of customized manufacturing. Besides, the US loses know-how on manufacturing, eliminating potentially hundreds of thousands of high-paying engineering jobs - it will also be a pipe dream that we can keep the so-called high-end jobs by sitting in an office drawing boxes all day. Sooner or later, those who work with the actual manufacturing processes on the factor floor will out compete us and grab our the cushy "design" jobs.
  - whimsicalism 2y ago
    it’s mostly just baumol cost disease. you can feel free to buy american, i don’t care so i would prefer if it were not mandated and you get your individual choice to pay more for your goods if you want
- johnnyanmac 2y ago
  Easy to get better value on wages when you get to pay under the minimum wage of your home country. And/or aren't required to offer benefits, vacation. And are able to work them twice as long without overtime pay. And don't need to care about child labor laws. To be blunt: yes, slavery is cheap, isn't it?
bluGill 2y ago
50k is just a step above McDonalds these days in a lot of areas. Sure minimum wage might be $15k, but realistically nobody pays that little except in very rural areas (if you need a small number of low skilled employees a small rural town is a perfect spot to build - but if you need more than a small number they can't provide more at any price - you will pay more in the city but there are a lot more people around if you need more)
- gjsman-1000 2y ago
  Perhaps - in California. Median US Salary is $59,384. Half of workers make less.
  - thecosas 2y ago
    Keep in mind the plant they are talking about is in AZ, where median wages and cost of living are generally lower than California.
    - hx8 2y ago
      Medium individual income in AZ is ~37k. I'm not sure how many Americans would give up a 40hour/week job for a 996 that pays 13k more.
      - BobaFloutist 2y ago
        AZ minimum wage is 14.70. If it was 996 and you somehow only got straight time for working 72h a week, it would pay 55000. Assuming there's no overtime exemption it would be $67000. I'm pretty sure it's not a 996 in AZ.
      - TypingOutBugs 2y ago
        Why does it have to be 996 at TSMC in the US?
      - johnnyanmac 2y ago
        Very easily if they need to pay overtime here. I'd be very surprised to find an argument of $37k being exempt in any state. They will indeed burn themselves out, but that's their choice of work/life balance vs. pay.
IshKebab 2y ago
I spoke to a Taiwanese person and apparently the salaries there are actually quite good, even by western standards (normal ones; not SF). The downside is they have very very long hours (996, barely any holiday, etc.).
- 867-5309 2y ago
  996..? doesn't fit into weeks, months or years
  - melvyn2 2y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/996_working_hour_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/996_working_hour_system
  - rlp 2y ago
    9am to 9pm 6 days a week
  - tokioyoyo 2y ago
    9am-9pm 6 days a week.
  - codazoda 2y ago
    Why would they require these hours? In the U.S. I think they would need to pay time and a half for anything north of 40-hours. Seems like it would be cheaper to hire more workers and not force the overtime. Then they might be able to increase the salary some. Everyone wins except the people who are willing to sacrifice the time for time and a half pay.
    - d3nj4l 2y ago
      AIUI almost all salaried employees are exempt from overtime pay in the US.
      - duskwuff 2y ago
        This is only accurate inasmuch as most salaried employees are overtime exempt for other reasons (e.g. because they are executive or administrative professionals). Paying employees a salary, on its own, does not make them overtime exempt. https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/fact-sheets/17a-overtime https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/fact-sheets/17a-overtime
byw 2y ago
Cost of living can be a lot lower in Taiwan, if your property is already paid off. Unfortunately housing is super overpriced, due to the Asian mentality resulting in high property ownership. Real estate is always the monkey wrench in the gears of capitalism because of high necessity yet limited supply.
- bugglebeetle 2y ago
  > Unfortunately housing is super overpriced, due to the Asian mentality resulting in high property ownership. I have no clue what this means and in countries like Japan, housing is a depreciating asset vs. an investment, so…?
  - byw 2y ago
    More so in the Chinese-speaking world and South Korea because the industrialization/urbanization is more recent, so there's rising demand in the urban areas with high population growth, resulting in high prices. Japan's urbanization stopped long ago, and it's not taking in immigrants fast enough, so the urban areas have stopped growing. The mentality refers to East Asia's deep agrarian root that places high value on owning land that can be passed down the generations (the alternative was often quasi-servile farm labour that locks families in poverty). Property purchases are usually multi-generational efforts, so families can generally take the brunt of overinflated prices.
    - BlackSwanMan 2y ago
      [dead]
    - numpad0 2y ago
      1. Japan's urbanization stopped long ago, 2. and it's not taking in immigrants fast enough, 3. so the urban areas have stopped growing. it's just my gut feeling but feels like each of these three statement can be individually debunked...
      - 2y ago

rkagerer 2y ago

...just seem more willing to do it That's why manufacturing offshored in the first place, companies feel they're receiving better value for money on wages elsewhere for this kind of work (and these days not to mention more & larger facilities, proximity to component sources, and a strong ecosystem of supporting and complimentary facilities).

Teever 2y ago
I think that's obviously a major part of it but it ignores other stuff like lax environmental and safety standards. It would be interesting to see how much of the economic advantage of off-shoring is due to lower wages due intrinsic to lower cost of living vs stuff like ignoring/bribing foreign officials or non-existent environmenta/safety standards that objectively should exist.
hintymad 2y ago
Personally I won't mind paying more to buy manufactured goods. My mom told me that a pair of sneakers before the offshoring back in the late 80s usually cost more than $300 in today's dollars. Yes, it was expensive, but I would just buy fewer and use the one for longer time. The reason is that in the long run the manufacturing cost would get lower due to increased efficiency, and loss of supply chain is detrimental to the entire country - and our living expenses will increase overall. Case in point, how much tax do we have to pay and how much inflation do we have to suffer in order to build those super expensive weapons? Part of the reasons that we had $20K toilet and $100 screws is that we simply don't have large enough supply chain to offset the cost of customized manufacturing. Besides, the US loses know-how on manufacturing, eliminating potentially hundreds of thousands of high-paying engineering jobs - it will also be a pipe dream that we can keep the so-called high-end jobs by sitting in an office drawing boxes all day. Sooner or later, those who work with the actual manufacturing processes on the factor floor will out compete us and grab our the cushy "design" jobs.
- whimsicalism 2y ago
  it’s mostly just baumol cost disease. you can feel free to buy american, i don’t care so i would prefer if it were not mandated and you get your individual choice to pay more for your goods if you want
johnnyanmac 2y ago
Easy to get better value on wages when you get to pay under the minimum wage of your home country. And/or aren't required to offer benefits, vacation. And are able to work them twice as long without overtime pay. And don't need to care about child labor laws. To be blunt: yes, slavery is cheap, isn't it?

bluGill 2y ago

50k is just a step above McDonalds these days in a lot of areas. Sure minimum wage might be $15k, but realistically nobody pays that little except in very rural areas (if you need a small number of low skilled employees a small rural town is a perfect spot to build - but if you need more than a small number they can't provide more at any price - you will pay more in the city but there are a lot more people around if you need more)

gjsman-1000 2y ago
Perhaps - in California. Median US Salary is $59,384. Half of workers make less.
- thecosas 2y ago
  Keep in mind the plant they are talking about is in AZ, where median wages and cost of living are generally lower than California.
  - hx8 2y ago
    Medium individual income in AZ is ~37k. I'm not sure how many Americans would give up a 40hour/week job for a 996 that pays 13k more.
    - BobaFloutist 2y ago
      AZ minimum wage is 14.70. If it was 996 and you somehow only got straight time for working 72h a week, it would pay 55000. Assuming there's no overtime exemption it would be $67000. I'm pretty sure it's not a 996 in AZ.
    - TypingOutBugs 2y ago
      Why does it have to be 996 at TSMC in the US?
    - johnnyanmac 2y ago
      Very easily if they need to pay overtime here. I'd be very surprised to find an argument of $37k being exempt in any state. They will indeed burn themselves out, but that's their choice of work/life balance vs. pay.

IshKebab 2y ago

I spoke to a Taiwanese person and apparently the salaries there are actually quite good, even by western standards (normal ones; not SF). The downside is they have very very long hours (996, barely any holiday, etc.).

867-5309 2y ago
996..? doesn't fit into weeks, months or years
- melvyn2 2y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/996_working_hour_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/996_working_hour_system
- rlp 2y ago
  9am to 9pm 6 days a week
- tokioyoyo 2y ago
  9am-9pm 6 days a week.
- codazoda 2y ago
  Why would they require these hours? In the U.S. I think they would need to pay time and a half for anything north of 40-hours. Seems like it would be cheaper to hire more workers and not force the overtime. Then they might be able to increase the salary some. Everyone wins except the people who are willing to sacrifice the time for time and a half pay.
  - d3nj4l 2y ago
    AIUI almost all salaried employees are exempt from overtime pay in the US.
    - duskwuff 2y ago
      This is only accurate inasmuch as most salaried employees are overtime exempt for other reasons (e.g. because they are executive or administrative professionals). Paying employees a salary, on its own, does not make them overtime exempt. https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/fact-sheets/17a-overtime https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/fact-sheets/17a-overtime

byw 2y ago

Cost of living can be a lot lower in Taiwan, if your property is already paid off. Unfortunately housing is super overpriced, due to the Asian mentality resulting in high property ownership. Real estate is always the monkey wrench in the gears of capitalism because of high necessity yet limited supply.

bugglebeetle 2y ago
> Unfortunately housing is super overpriced, due to the Asian mentality resulting in high property ownership. I have no clue what this means and in countries like Japan, housing is a depreciating asset vs. an investment, so…?
- byw 2y ago
  More so in the Chinese-speaking world and South Korea because the industrialization/urbanization is more recent, so there's rising demand in the urban areas with high population growth, resulting in high prices. Japan's urbanization stopped long ago, and it's not taking in immigrants fast enough, so the urban areas have stopped growing. The mentality refers to East Asia's deep agrarian root that places high value on owning land that can be passed down the generations (the alternative was often quasi-servile farm labour that locks families in poverty). Property purchases are usually multi-generational efforts, so families can generally take the brunt of overinflated prices.
  - BlackSwanMan 2y ago
    [dead]
  - numpad0 2y ago
    1. Japan's urbanization stopped long ago, 2. and it's not taking in immigrants fast enough, 3. so the urban areas have stopped growing. it's just my gut feeling but feels like each of these three statement can be individually debunked...
    - 2y ago