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> The ideal creator has no distance between themselves and their persona. They have been interpellated by audience metrics; their subjective experience already

by mhartz 2y ago

> The ideal creator has no distance between themselves and their persona. They have been interpellated by audience metrics; their subjective experience already takes audience reactions into account. Isn't this sort of one of the themes from The Prestige(2006)? That certain magicians were so dedicated to their craft that they became inseparable from it. The performance never actually stopped

suyash 2y ago
Great analogy! As a performing magician and a big fan of the movie, I get how obsession with a craft can blur the line between reality and performance. But that line still exists. The best actors, creators, and magicians make us feel they’re being real, even when they’re not.
- HanClinto 2y ago
  This is why I struggle with enjoying Andy Kaufman's content -- I'm never entirely sure where that line is. I respect his dedication to the craft, but I have a difficult time enjoying it -- on a meta level, it's unsettling.
  - jprd 2y ago
    Also, exactly his aim
  - kevinsync 2y ago
    Kaufman was Daniel Day Lewis-level dedicated to the character, but there are others, Tom Green for instance, who ostensibly was just as dedicated for the first arc of his fame and career, then loosened his grip on the persona with age. I often think about his trajectory compared to the average social media influencer -- he pioneered so many things and has worked in a bunch of mediums while they're basically imprisoned in their chosen persona, doomed to repeat the formula / gimmick / character day in and day out until the novelty wears off for everybody and they burn out entirely 12-24 months later. The ones with the most longevity seem to have been able to retain autonomy as a creator rather than a creation, as mentioned in the article, allowing them to grow and evolve rather than forever being a one-note wonder whose entire raison d'etre is eating shoe polish on camera.
jplrssn 2y ago
Arguably also true for some (many?) tech entrepreneurs.
vishnugupta 2y ago
> they became inseparable If one spends most of their waking hours in front of camera producing video after video it's bound to happen subconsciously whether they like it or not.
michaelcampbell 2y ago
This isn't purely new, either. I'm perhaps dating myself a bit but I recall that over the years I have seen a few actors have this weird vibe where they're never "human", they always "on" and seem like their actor-thing has totally subsumed their humanity. David Cassidy and Shirley McClain come to mind for me on this.
- cjs_ac 2y ago
  Peter Sellers also had this problem; in his case, it was a problem with his personality (or lack of one) rather than something acting did to him.
  - esafak 2y ago
    Comedians seem to exhibit this trait more often than others. Norm Macdonald had a somewhat similar vibe.
- triyambakam 2y ago
  Johnny Depp maybe?
- qskousen 2y ago
  I realize I'm probably in the minority for this, but for me when people create a "persona" for their media, it turns me away. I prefer watching people who are more genuine, whose content is less entertainment and more just themselves, even if that isn't what the internet seems to be looking for.
  - michaelcampbell 2y ago
    I find it somewhere between "very uncomfortable" and "creepy". Even as a kid something felt very off in those interviews.
  - mrguyorama 2y ago
    The people you consider "more genuine" are just cultivating a different persona. Don't ever believe you "know" someone you don't. Parasocial relationships are harmless at the low level but quickly become toxic. Always meet your heros so you can understand they are normal and flawed humans
kayvulpe 2y ago
A couple times that theme appears (there are more) --- https://youtu.be/uckLb_8LEGQ?t=36s https://youtu.be/uckLb_8LEGQ?t=36s ANGIER (scorn) It's misdirection- he leaves those things lying around to make you think he's using a double. OLIVIA All the time? He doesn't know when I'm looking ANGIER All the time, Olivia- that's who he is, that's what it takes- he lives his act, don't you see?! --- Also the dialogue after the fishbowl performance https://youtu.be/J8ZXT2HTxqE?t=34s https://youtu.be/J8ZXT2HTxqE?t=34s BORDEN (points) This is the trick. This is the performance, right here. This is why no one can detect his method. Total devotion to his art...
criddell 2y ago
Vonnegut also uses this in Mother Night. We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be.
banannaise 2y ago
One of the problems with modern social media (and digital media in general) is that this is now happening, to some extent, to everyone. This is particularly a problem for children, who are exposed to this so early that they may never internalize the difference between existence and performance. Bo Burnham said it really well in an interview: "I'm saying I feel very stressed because I feel like I'm on stage panicking in front of thousands of people... and I feel like I'm trapped within a performance and I'm freaking out because of it. And 13-year-olds were going 'yeah yeah, I feel like that every day'. And I go 'what are you talking about?' and I realize that the stresses of a C-list comedian were democratized and given to an entire generation.... Social media has made life a performance." I'm not sure where the original interview is, but I found the quote at 9:43 of this analysis of Inside: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHat1OlMPeY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHat1OlMPeY
- itsmorgantime 2y ago
  Bo Burnham really does have a lot to say on growing up on YouTube and the effects of social media/always performing/looking for an audience. I agree with pretty much all of it, but the most thought provoking one to me was in his Make Happy special right before his big ending. Him talking about the "Me Generation" from that special - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41hNI3YYnWk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41hNI3YYnWk
ericmcer 2y ago
They were dedicated to the craft though, there have been countless people who dedicated themselves to pushing the boundaries of their profession and lost their personal lives in the process. Losing yourself to achieve something new in math, art, science, etc. can be seen as a worthwhile sacrifice. Content creators feels more perverse because they are sacrificing themselves to making metrics go up. The act of creation is in service to metrics that please an algorithm so views go up. If the magicians didn't care about magic at all but were obsessed with optimizing the show around ticket sales it would be a shitty movie.
- patcon 2y ago
  I am very skeptic of the creator economy, but to play devils advocate: Could it be that "craft" until now has been a high dimensional and abstract conceptual navigation exercise, for which some people had both (1) the compass of intuition and (2) the drive. Replacing craft with metrics means that people without the high dimensional intuition/compass (but with the drive) can still play a part in the game. So maybe this is just another example of unbundling and specialisation process, that is democratising access to renown (or whatever the wealth of "renown" is, in the sense of network topology) Of course, if the compass that is replaced with metrics is miscalibrated in the system, the end point can still be a very sick society (even if access to the renown in that sick society is more equitably distributed by some measures)
  - puffybunion 2y ago
    I created an account after many many years on this site to tell you I have had the same thoughts about this navigation in a higher space, akin to spelunking in a cave system of concepts, this is just another way to explore viable concepts. It's a horrid part of the cave system imo but it's obviously viable.
    - patcon 2y ago
      Oh wow, then I feel very honoured :) It's neat to have that feeling of one of your "weird" or "niche" thoughts being captured (even if poorly) by someone else, living a different life. I love that feeling when I encounter it here! I often think of minds as very spatial as well, in that introducing new concepts to a mind requires it be tailored to specific characteristics of that mind, like tuning the parameters of a autonomous vehicle before sending it off on its own into the mind, hoping it makes it deeply within. The truly impressive and powerful concepts (which I understand to have very specific and complex high dimensional symmetry), are those which I assume are the ones that we call poetic or beautiful or resonant. They are the ones whose shape is finely tuned to resonate deeply with the shared shapes of many many human minds. Often I think of people in their minds as people in mazes, and there are certain areas of the maze people go to, that sometimes certain neurotypes can imagine well, but others can only treat as a black box (though really, they are the maze itself)
liontwist 2y ago
And that those who most successful are able to appear magical because they are willing to do things so unreasonable that the possibility doesn’t even cross your mind.
jandrese 2y ago
It reminded me of the old Vonnegut novel "Mother Night". The refrain from that work was "You are what you pretend to be."

by mhartz 2y ago

suyash 2y ago

Great analogy! As a performing magician and a big fan of the movie, I get how obsession with a craft can blur the line between reality and performance. But that line still exists. The best actors, creators, and magicians make us feel they’re being real, even when they’re not.

HanClinto 2y ago
This is why I struggle with enjoying Andy Kaufman's content -- I'm never entirely sure where that line is. I respect his dedication to the craft, but I have a difficult time enjoying it -- on a meta level, it's unsettling.
- jprd 2y ago
  Also, exactly his aim
- kevinsync 2y ago
  Kaufman was Daniel Day Lewis-level dedicated to the character, but there are others, Tom Green for instance, who ostensibly was just as dedicated for the first arc of his fame and career, then loosened his grip on the persona with age. I often think about his trajectory compared to the average social media influencer -- he pioneered so many things and has worked in a bunch of mediums while they're basically imprisoned in their chosen persona, doomed to repeat the formula / gimmick / character day in and day out until the novelty wears off for everybody and they burn out entirely 12-24 months later. The ones with the most longevity seem to have been able to retain autonomy as a creator rather than a creation, as mentioned in the article, allowing them to grow and evolve rather than forever being a one-note wonder whose entire raison d'etre is eating shoe polish on camera.

jplrssn 2y ago

Arguably also true for some (many?) tech entrepreneurs.

vishnugupta 2y ago

> they became inseparable If one spends most of their waking hours in front of camera producing video after video it's bound to happen subconsciously whether they like it or not.

michaelcampbell 2y ago

This isn't purely new, either. I'm perhaps dating myself a bit but I recall that over the years I have seen a few actors have this weird vibe where they're never "human", they always "on" and seem like their actor-thing has totally subsumed their humanity. David Cassidy and Shirley McClain come to mind for me on this.

cjs_ac 2y ago
Peter Sellers also had this problem; in his case, it was a problem with his personality (or lack of one) rather than something acting did to him.
- esafak 2y ago
  Comedians seem to exhibit this trait more often than others. Norm Macdonald had a somewhat similar vibe.
triyambakam 2y ago
Johnny Depp maybe?
qskousen 2y ago
I realize I'm probably in the minority for this, but for me when people create a "persona" for their media, it turns me away. I prefer watching people who are more genuine, whose content is less entertainment and more just themselves, even if that isn't what the internet seems to be looking for.
- michaelcampbell 2y ago
  I find it somewhere between "very uncomfortable" and "creepy". Even as a kid something felt very off in those interviews.
- mrguyorama 2y ago
  The people you consider "more genuine" are just cultivating a different persona. Don't ever believe you "know" someone you don't. Parasocial relationships are harmless at the low level but quickly become toxic. Always meet your heros so you can understand they are normal and flawed humans

kayvulpe 2y ago

A couple times that theme appears (there are more) --- https://youtu.be/uckLb_8LEGQ?t=36s https://youtu.be/uckLb_8LEGQ?t=36s ANGIER (scorn) It's misdirection- he leaves those things lying around to make you think he's using a double. OLIVIA All the time? He doesn't know when I'm looking ANGIER All the time, Olivia- that's who he is, that's what it takes- he lives his act, don't you see?! --- Also the dialogue after the fishbowl performance https://youtu.be/J8ZXT2HTxqE?t=34s https://youtu.be/J8ZXT2HTxqE?t=34s BORDEN (points) This is the trick. This is the performance, right here. This is why no one can detect his method. Total devotion to his art...

criddell 2y ago

Vonnegut also uses this in Mother Night. We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be.

banannaise 2y ago

One of the problems with modern social media (and digital media in general) is that this is now happening, to some extent, to everyone. This is particularly a problem for children, who are exposed to this so early that they may never internalize the difference between existence and performance. Bo Burnham said it really well in an interview: "I'm saying I feel very stressed because I feel like I'm on stage panicking in front of thousands of people... and I feel like I'm trapped within a performance and I'm freaking out because of it. And 13-year-olds were going 'yeah yeah, I feel like that every day'. And I go 'what are you talking about?' and I realize that the stresses of a C-list comedian were democratized and given to an entire generation.... Social media has made life a performance." I'm not sure where the original interview is, but I found the quote at 9:43 of this analysis of Inside: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHat1OlMPeY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHat1OlMPeY

itsmorgantime 2y ago
Bo Burnham really does have a lot to say on growing up on YouTube and the effects of social media/always performing/looking for an audience. I agree with pretty much all of it, but the most thought provoking one to me was in his Make Happy special right before his big ending. Him talking about the "Me Generation" from that special - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41hNI3YYnWk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41hNI3YYnWk

ericmcer 2y ago

They were dedicated to the craft though, there have been countless people who dedicated themselves to pushing the boundaries of their profession and lost their personal lives in the process. Losing yourself to achieve something new in math, art, science, etc. can be seen as a worthwhile sacrifice. Content creators feels more perverse because they are sacrificing themselves to making metrics go up. The act of creation is in service to metrics that please an algorithm so views go up. If the magicians didn't care about magic at all but were obsessed with optimizing the show around ticket sales it would be a shitty movie.

patcon 2y ago
I am very skeptic of the creator economy, but to play devils advocate: Could it be that "craft" until now has been a high dimensional and abstract conceptual navigation exercise, for which some people had both (1) the compass of intuition and (2) the drive. Replacing craft with metrics means that people without the high dimensional intuition/compass (but with the drive) can still play a part in the game. So maybe this is just another example of unbundling and specialisation process, that is democratising access to renown (or whatever the wealth of "renown" is, in the sense of network topology) Of course, if the compass that is replaced with metrics is miscalibrated in the system, the end point can still be a very sick society (even if access to the renown in that sick society is more equitably distributed by some measures)
- puffybunion 2y ago
  I created an account after many many years on this site to tell you I have had the same thoughts about this navigation in a higher space, akin to spelunking in a cave system of concepts, this is just another way to explore viable concepts. It's a horrid part of the cave system imo but it's obviously viable.
  - patcon 2y ago
    Oh wow, then I feel very honoured :) It's neat to have that feeling of one of your "weird" or "niche" thoughts being captured (even if poorly) by someone else, living a different life. I love that feeling when I encounter it here! I often think of minds as very spatial as well, in that introducing new concepts to a mind requires it be tailored to specific characteristics of that mind, like tuning the parameters of a autonomous vehicle before sending it off on its own into the mind, hoping it makes it deeply within. The truly impressive and powerful concepts (which I understand to have very specific and complex high dimensional symmetry), are those which I assume are the ones that we call poetic or beautiful or resonant. They are the ones whose shape is finely tuned to resonate deeply with the shared shapes of many many human minds. Often I think of people in their minds as people in mazes, and there are certain areas of the maze people go to, that sometimes certain neurotypes can imagine well, but others can only treat as a black box (though really, they are the maze itself)

liontwist 2y ago

And that those who most successful are able to appear magical because they are willing to do things so unreasonable that the possibility doesn’t even cross your mind.

jandrese 2y ago

It reminded me of the old Vonnegut novel "Mother Night". The refrain from that work was "You are what you pretend to be."