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Some Chinese auto manufactures are pretty good, but a lot are startups in the worst sense of the term: a couple of months from shutting down. Cars are not disp

Some Chinese auto manufactures are pretty good, but a lot are startups in the worst sense of the term: a couple of months from shutting down. Cars are not disposable, so you kinda want a 15-years of support. Which isn’t just the brand keeping the lights on, it’s a whole service infrastructure. That’s where Tesla fails, and where a lot of Chinese manufacturers fail: they don’t build one. In that, they aren’t very different than Tesla.

papa_bear 2y ago
I was under the impression that Tesla has put a lot of effort into building out support infrastructure? My perception is a bit clouded by the fact that I live a few miles from a service center.
- srockets 2y ago
  Try to get spare parts for teslas. Or fix them at a non-Tesla owned shop. Both are 100x more complex and expensive than any other mass produced car made in the last decade 20 years. And it is like that by design: it was never a priority for them.
thebruce87m 2y ago
> That’s where Tesla fails What do you mean by this? I get more support from Tesla than any other car I’ve had. Bug fixes, new features, all OTA. In terms of service infrastructure, I can open a ticket from my phone, chat with a service person and have an appointment booked. They will even send someone out to the car to fix any issues. I had my window realigned and never even interacted physically with the person.
- prmoustache 2y ago
  > never even interacted physically with the person. Note that some people would not view that as a plus. Not an owner myself but I get service and experience might differ greatly depending on country.
  - thebruce87m 2y ago
    > Note that some people would not view that as a plus. Those people would have the choice of driving to the garage and waiting if they wished to. I chose for the home visit then cycled to work and came home to a fixed car.
- HWR_14 2y ago
  I have no idea why I would want an OTA patch to my car. But I also don't know why I would want any apps or other complex software in my car.
  - AlotOfReading 2y ago
    You have complex software in your car regardless if it was purchased anytime in the last couple decades. The difference is whether you receive updates when it's brought in to a service center, or OTA. I personally prefer the former, even as someone whose job is simplified by the latter.
    - HWR_14 2y ago
      I've never had or wanted to update the software on my car.
      - AlotOfReading 2y ago
        Has your car never had a recall, or are you simply unaware of any software recalls that have been done to it? Recalls are often done with software updates these days, so if you're not applying updates you're deliberately choosing not to apply safety fixes.
        HWR_14 2y ago
        Last year there were five major recalls. One was a software fix for backup cameras not always working. Two were Tesla software issues. Two were non-Tesla hardware issues. I think if I avoid a Tesla, I don't have to worry about software updates for a while.
        AlotOfReading 2y ago
        There were dozens of recalls in December alone. Every manufacturer has software bugs that need recalls, or fixes for hardware issues that involve software workarounds.
- srockets 2y ago
  What about hardware? If a part breaks, how long do you have to wait for a new one? (Insurance costs for Teslas are extremely high because parts take so long to acquire). How often does it break? (Tesla notoriously don’t use automotive quality parts, which reduces costs, and increases MTTF). And who can fix it? Can you get service manuals for it? Not every car is a Hilux, notorious for being extremely fixable, but every serious car manufacturer had a whole infrastructure for serious after sales support. Tesla is still not there, and by choice. That was never a priority for them.
  - thebruce87m 2y ago
    Never had a part break. I had a creaking noise from the boot trims and they were replaced quickly in a remote visit. Waiting for parts seems to be an industry wide problem at the moment, and my anecdotal evidence supports this with many people I know waiting for parts for their non-EV vehicles. My colleague was without his Ford Puma for 2 weeks due to waiting on a part.
saturn8601 2y ago
Keep in mind that China is on a completely different level when it comes to repair and the ecosystem around repair. What you might see as an unacceptable situation might be workable in China because of their freedom and ability to repair and remix parts. I dont want to downplay your comment as there are also pictures of cars rotting in fields so despite the repair culture they dont have their incentives aligned 100%, i'm just trying to see both sides of the issue. [1]:https://www.bloomberg.com/features/2023-china-ev-graveyards/ https://www.bloomberg.com/features/2023-china-ev-graveyards/
- srockets 2y ago
  The ability to have devices that are considered unfixable fixed by Chinese tradespeople is amazing. But you can’t get that ROW, and for Chinese car companies to be successful outside China, that’s a must.

papa_bear 2y ago

I was under the impression that Tesla has put a lot of effort into building out support infrastructure? My perception is a bit clouded by the fact that I live a few miles from a service center.

srockets 2y ago
Try to get spare parts for teslas. Or fix them at a non-Tesla owned shop. Both are 100x more complex and expensive than any other mass produced car made in the last decade 20 years. And it is like that by design: it was never a priority for them.

thebruce87m 2y ago

> That’s where Tesla fails What do you mean by this? I get more support from Tesla than any other car I’ve had. Bug fixes, new features, all OTA. In terms of service infrastructure, I can open a ticket from my phone, chat with a service person and have an appointment booked. They will even send someone out to the car to fix any issues. I had my window realigned and never even interacted physically with the person.

prmoustache 2y ago
> never even interacted physically with the person. Note that some people would not view that as a plus. Not an owner myself but I get service and experience might differ greatly depending on country.
- thebruce87m 2y ago
  > Note that some people would not view that as a plus. Those people would have the choice of driving to the garage and waiting if they wished to. I chose for the home visit then cycled to work and came home to a fixed car.
HWR_14 2y ago
I have no idea why I would want an OTA patch to my car. But I also don't know why I would want any apps or other complex software in my car.
- AlotOfReading 2y ago
  You have complex software in your car regardless if it was purchased anytime in the last couple decades. The difference is whether you receive updates when it's brought in to a service center, or OTA. I personally prefer the former, even as someone whose job is simplified by the latter.
  - HWR_14 2y ago
    I've never had or wanted to update the software on my car.
    - AlotOfReading 2y ago
      Has your car never had a recall, or are you simply unaware of any software recalls that have been done to it? Recalls are often done with software updates these days, so if you're not applying updates you're deliberately choosing not to apply safety fixes.
      - HWR_14 2y ago
        Last year there were five major recalls. One was a software fix for backup cameras not always working. Two were Tesla software issues. Two were non-Tesla hardware issues. I think if I avoid a Tesla, I don't have to worry about software updates for a while.
        AlotOfReading 2y ago
        There were dozens of recalls in December alone. Every manufacturer has software bugs that need recalls, or fixes for hardware issues that involve software workarounds.
srockets 2y ago
What about hardware? If a part breaks, how long do you have to wait for a new one? (Insurance costs for Teslas are extremely high because parts take so long to acquire). How often does it break? (Tesla notoriously don’t use automotive quality parts, which reduces costs, and increases MTTF). And who can fix it? Can you get service manuals for it? Not every car is a Hilux, notorious for being extremely fixable, but every serious car manufacturer had a whole infrastructure for serious after sales support. Tesla is still not there, and by choice. That was never a priority for them.
- thebruce87m 2y ago
  Never had a part break. I had a creaking noise from the boot trims and they were replaced quickly in a remote visit. Waiting for parts seems to be an industry wide problem at the moment, and my anecdotal evidence supports this with many people I know waiting for parts for their non-EV vehicles. My colleague was without his Ford Puma for 2 weeks due to waiting on a part.

saturn8601 2y ago

Keep in mind that China is on a completely different level when it comes to repair and the ecosystem around repair. What you might see as an unacceptable situation might be workable in China because of their freedom and ability to repair and remix parts. I dont want to downplay your comment as there are also pictures of cars rotting in fields so despite the repair culture they dont have their incentives aligned 100%, i'm just trying to see both sides of the issue. [1]:https://www.bloomberg.com/features/2023-china-ev-graveyards/ https://www.bloomberg.com/features/2023-china-ev-graveyards/

srockets 2y ago
The ability to have devices that are considered unfixable fixed by Chinese tradespeople is amazing. But you can’t get that ROW, and for Chinese car companies to be successful outside China, that’s a must.