9 ms·

[flagged]

by RandomThoughts3 2y ago

[flagged]

throw10920 2y ago
[flagged]
- RandomThoughts3 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - throw10920 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - throw10920 2y ago
      And to be absolutely clear: it should be obvious, but I am not stating that CIA intervening in other counties' economies isn't bad - just that it is objectively difficult than IP theft of the kind the PRC engages in.
    - RandomThoughts3 2y ago
      [flagged]
      - throw10920 2y ago
        [flagged]
  - Spooky23 2y ago
    Like what? I cited two well documented situations where the PRC paid Chinese expats to steal specific materials to help PLA owned firms develop specific products. Show me something other than whataboutism and double talk.
    - RandomThoughts3 2y ago
      [flagged]
      - throw10920 2y ago
        [flagged]
        dang 2y ago
        You also unfortunately broke the site guidelines in this thread, by perpetuating this tedious flamewar. Please don't do that. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
        RandomThoughts3 2y ago
        [flagged]
        dang 2y ago
        You broke the site guidelines so badly in this thread that I've banned the account. I don't want to ban you, but you've been crossing the line frequently and badly: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42521228 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42521228 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42514626 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42514626 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42503012 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42503012 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42490292 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42490292 - and we already asked you to stop (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41228950 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41228950). We simply can't have people being this abusive to others on this site, regardless of how much you know or feel you know. Also, please don't create accounts to break HN's rules with, as it will eventually get your main account banned as well.
- bostik 2y ago
  > This is completely irrelevant, as there's no evidence that the US uses its state intelligence apparatus to engage in industrial espionage Apart from recent and historical evidence to the contrary[0;1], one has to expect that every member of the G20 group is doing the same against everyone else - and has also been doing so for decades. Perhaps more importantly, you have to assume that every intelligence agency in that same group are constantly (re)compromising and extending their foothold in their peers' communications systems as much as they can. From a national security perspective, to refrain from doing so would be irresponsible. That said... > There's ample evidence that the PRC does this, and has been doing this, for decades This is also true. The approach taken by China was brutally effective: in order to allow foreign investment into China, the investor company had to accept terms that started with Technology Transfer programs.[2;3] For a Western company, ongoing access to relatively cheap and educated labour, in addition to a market of a billion+ potential customers, the short term tradeoffs were each seen individually profitable enough to compromise on their longer term sustainability. After all, it made the graphs go up. The technologies that the companies chose to keep out of China were then the juicier, self-selected targets for pure industrial espionage. The way I see it, we're slightly more than a decade away from reintroduction of internment camps. One of the G20 players is going to overstep the invisible boundaries, in a game where the rules are constantly rewritten. The result will be an inevitable knee-jerk reaction, propped up by the already visibly rising nationalistic and xenophobic fervour. We are entering the age of the next round of the Great Game, this one fit for the 21s century, for the control of all six continents.[4] 0: https://www.mediapart.fr/en/journal/france/290615/revealed-massive-us-industrial-espionage-against-france https://www.mediapart.fr/en/journal/france/290615/revealed-m... 1: https://www.windpowermonthly.com/article/960011/trans-atlantic-espionage-claimed-german-wind-company https://www.windpowermonthly.com/article/960011/trans-atlant... 2: https://www.uscc.gov/research/how-chinese-companies-facilitate-technology-transfer-united-states https://www.uscc.gov/research/how-chinese-companies-facilita... 3: https://www.csis.org/analysis/rethinking-technology-transfer-policy-toward-china https://www.csis.org/analysis/rethinking-technology-transfer... 4: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Game https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Game
  - throw10920 2y ago
    Your first citation [0] does not actually provide evidence for the claim that the US government is engaging in IP theft and passing that IP to US companies - spying on a defense minister (even though it's something that shouldn't happen given that the US and France are allies) is categorically different, and is something that you would expect countries to do (even if be disappointed at them) for defense and strategic purposes only, without any IP theft. You'd need additional evidence to indicate IP theft. Your second citation [1] links to no sources and makes the massive error that the NSA is a department of the CIA. I don't think that it's trustworthy, although I can look up the story later and if I find other sources we can see if it's plausible. > Perhaps more importantly, you have to assume that every intelligence agency in that same group are constantly (re)compromising and extending their foothold in their peers' communications systems as much as they can. Yes, I think this is a reasonable assumption - I'm not saying that it's right, but it's reasonable. However, that's still categorically different from the IP theft being discussed, in the context of being able to trust your knowledge workforce and having good cyber security. Thanks for the analogy to the Great Game, this is interesting!

[flagged]

throw10920 2y ago

[flagged]

RandomThoughts3 2y ago
[flagged]
- throw10920 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - throw10920 2y ago
    And to be absolutely clear: it should be obvious, but I am not stating that CIA intervening in other counties' economies isn't bad - just that it is objectively difficult than IP theft of the kind the PRC engages in.
  - RandomThoughts3 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - throw10920 2y ago
      [flagged]
- Spooky23 2y ago
  Like what? I cited two well documented situations where the PRC paid Chinese expats to steal specific materials to help PLA owned firms develop specific products. Show me something other than whataboutism and double talk.
  - RandomThoughts3 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - throw10920 2y ago
      [flagged]
      - dang 2y ago
        You also unfortunately broke the site guidelines in this thread, by perpetuating this tedious flamewar. Please don't do that. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
      - RandomThoughts3 2y ago
        [flagged]
        dang 2y ago
        You broke the site guidelines so badly in this thread that I've banned the account. I don't want to ban you, but you've been crossing the line frequently and badly: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42521228 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42521228 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42514626 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42514626 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42503012 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42503012 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42490292 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42490292 - and we already asked you to stop (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41228950 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41228950). We simply can't have people being this abusive to others on this site, regardless of how much you know or feel you know. Also, please don't create accounts to break HN's rules with, as it will eventually get your main account banned as well.
bostik 2y ago
> This is completely irrelevant, as there's no evidence that the US uses its state intelligence apparatus to engage in industrial espionage Apart from recent and historical evidence to the contrary[0;1], one has to expect that every member of the G20 group is doing the same against everyone else - and has also been doing so for decades. Perhaps more importantly, you have to assume that every intelligence agency in that same group are constantly (re)compromising and extending their foothold in their peers' communications systems as much as they can. From a national security perspective, to refrain from doing so would be irresponsible. That said... > There's ample evidence that the PRC does this, and has been doing this, for decades This is also true. The approach taken by China was brutally effective: in order to allow foreign investment into China, the investor company had to accept terms that started with Technology Transfer programs.[2;3] For a Western company, ongoing access to relatively cheap and educated labour, in addition to a market of a billion+ potential customers, the short term tradeoffs were each seen individually profitable enough to compromise on their longer term sustainability. After all, it made the graphs go up. The technologies that the companies chose to keep out of China were then the juicier, self-selected targets for pure industrial espionage. The way I see it, we're slightly more than a decade away from reintroduction of internment camps. One of the G20 players is going to overstep the invisible boundaries, in a game where the rules are constantly rewritten. The result will be an inevitable knee-jerk reaction, propped up by the already visibly rising nationalistic and xenophobic fervour. We are entering the age of the next round of the Great Game, this one fit for the 21s century, for the control of all six continents.[4] 0: https://www.mediapart.fr/en/journal/france/290615/revealed-massive-us-industrial-espionage-against-france https://www.mediapart.fr/en/journal/france/290615/revealed-m... 1: https://www.windpowermonthly.com/article/960011/trans-atlantic-espionage-claimed-german-wind-company https://www.windpowermonthly.com/article/960011/trans-atlant... 2: https://www.uscc.gov/research/how-chinese-companies-facilitate-technology-transfer-united-states https://www.uscc.gov/research/how-chinese-companies-facilita... 3: https://www.csis.org/analysis/rethinking-technology-transfer-policy-toward-china https://www.csis.org/analysis/rethinking-technology-transfer... 4: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Game https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Game
- throw10920 2y ago
  Your first citation [0] does not actually provide evidence for the claim that the US government is engaging in IP theft and passing that IP to US companies - spying on a defense minister (even though it's something that shouldn't happen given that the US and France are allies) is categorically different, and is something that you would expect countries to do (even if be disappointed at them) for defense and strategic purposes only, without any IP theft. You'd need additional evidence to indicate IP theft. Your second citation [1] links to no sources and makes the massive error that the NSA is a department of the CIA. I don't think that it's trustworthy, although I can look up the story later and if I find other sources we can see if it's plausible. > Perhaps more importantly, you have to assume that every intelligence agency in that same group are constantly (re)compromising and extending their foothold in their peers' communications systems as much as they can. Yes, I think this is a reasonable assumption - I'm not saying that it's right, but it's reasonable. However, that's still categorically different from the IP theft being discussed, in the context of being able to trust your knowledge workforce and having good cyber security. Thanks for the analogy to the Great Game, this is interesting!