13 ms·

Who cares? It's just words. It's better than getting attacked while being paralyzed with indecision.

lxgr 2y ago
Yes, the UNCLOS is ultimately just words, just like the Geneva convention, a formal declaration of war, a country's nuclear doctrine etc. Words aren't as meaningless as you claim even at wartime.
- dagenleg 2y ago
  I think if you wanted to bring up meaningful words, those were not the best examples to give. In the recent years, somewhere amongst the endless nuclear threat screeching and the ignored ICC arrest warrants, they have lost a lot of meaning. The declaration of war is a pretty good example of that, actually, being an outdated and withered concept. I'm simply pointing out that words do not matter as much, willingness to do something, to respond, to defend yourself, that's what matters. I'm not ignoring the value of laws, and rules, and regulations, but they clearly are not an ironclad defense. Just like Article 5 isn't.
  - GoblinSlayer 2y ago
    Why declaration of war is outdated?
    - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
      > Why declaration of war is outdated? Plot every declaration of war since WWII. Now plot every military conflict. Nobody declares war by declaring war, we declare war by bombing.
      - eastbound 2y ago
        Every nation uses novel words every time, to avoid parallels. In fact ambassadors have to research every historical speech when a president wants to coin a new term. It’s not rare we hear “He said […], a term not used since [last scuffle between countries]”, journalists do notice. US has Guantanamo and they don’t call them prisoners of wars (PoW). Russia has special military operations. Australia doesn’t keep their illegal immigrants in detention centers but in “administrative residences”. So declarations of war are very much not outdated, insofar as everyone _avoids_ those terms.
        JumpCrisscross 2y ago
        > declarations of war are very much not outdated, insofar as everyone _avoids_ those terms One, sure, declarations of war aren’t academically outdated. By that measure neither are colonialism or chattel slavery, which are also avoided in modern speechwriting. Two, we absolutely say we’re going to war with each other. We just don’t formally declare it. Declarations of war are obsolete, I’d be hard pressed to find anyone serious in government or international relations who claims otherwise.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > UNCLOS is ultimately just words, just like the Geneva convention, a formal declaration of war, a country's nuclear doctrine UNCLOS is being ignored by China. The Geneva Conventions have been ignored by every current, former and emerging superpower, as well as several regional powers--again, without consequence. Nobody declares war. And Putin has been amending his nuclear doctrine by the hour, often with false starts. Would I prefer these were law? Absolutely. Must I blind myself to the fact that they aren't? No.
  - lxgr 2y ago
    There are ways of responding to some UNCLOS violations while continuing to adhere to it, e.g. the US's FONOPs. Just because some states are violating it doesn't mean that we should throw the entire thing overboard entirely.
    - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
      > ways of responding to some UNCLOS violations while continuing to adhere to it Sure. It's still, ultimately, a unilateraly rewriting of the terms. Something states can do in international law that individuals can't in a nation with the rule of law. > because some states are violating it doesn't mean that we should throw the entire thing overboard entirely Nobody is suggesting that. My point is we should be more open to such rewritings given they're commonly taking place. It doesn't make sense for Europe to treat UNCLOS as binding law when Russia, China and hell America treat is as nice-to-have guidelines. International agreements were treated as law in the post-WWII era. That era ended some time after the fall of the Soviet Union. Slowly. Then suddenly. They're now closer to LOIs. Some countries are realising this quickly. Others more slowly.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

lxgr 2y ago

Yes, the UNCLOS is ultimately just words, just like the Geneva convention, a formal declaration of war, a country's nuclear doctrine etc. Words aren't as meaningless as you claim even at wartime.

dagenleg 2y ago
I think if you wanted to bring up meaningful words, those were not the best examples to give. In the recent years, somewhere amongst the endless nuclear threat screeching and the ignored ICC arrest warrants, they have lost a lot of meaning. The declaration of war is a pretty good example of that, actually, being an outdated and withered concept. I'm simply pointing out that words do not matter as much, willingness to do something, to respond, to defend yourself, that's what matters. I'm not ignoring the value of laws, and rules, and regulations, but they clearly are not an ironclad defense. Just like Article 5 isn't.
- GoblinSlayer 2y ago
  Why declaration of war is outdated?
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > Why declaration of war is outdated? Plot every declaration of war since WWII. Now plot every military conflict. Nobody declares war by declaring war, we declare war by bombing.
    - eastbound 2y ago
      Every nation uses novel words every time, to avoid parallels. In fact ambassadors have to research every historical speech when a president wants to coin a new term. It’s not rare we hear “He said […], a term not used since [last scuffle between countries]”, journalists do notice. US has Guantanamo and they don’t call them prisoners of wars (PoW). Russia has special military operations. Australia doesn’t keep their illegal immigrants in detention centers but in “administrative residences”. So declarations of war are very much not outdated, insofar as everyone _avoids_ those terms.
      - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
        > declarations of war are very much not outdated, insofar as everyone _avoids_ those terms One, sure, declarations of war aren’t academically outdated. By that measure neither are colonialism or chattel slavery, which are also avoided in modern speechwriting. Two, we absolutely say we’re going to war with each other. We just don’t formally declare it. Declarations of war are obsolete, I’d be hard pressed to find anyone serious in government or international relations who claims otherwise.
JumpCrisscross 2y ago
> UNCLOS is ultimately just words, just like the Geneva convention, a formal declaration of war, a country's nuclear doctrine UNCLOS is being ignored by China. The Geneva Conventions have been ignored by every current, former and emerging superpower, as well as several regional powers--again, without consequence. Nobody declares war. And Putin has been amending his nuclear doctrine by the hour, often with false starts. Would I prefer these were law? Absolutely. Must I blind myself to the fact that they aren't? No.
- lxgr 2y ago
  There are ways of responding to some UNCLOS violations while continuing to adhere to it, e.g. the US's FONOPs. Just because some states are violating it doesn't mean that we should throw the entire thing overboard entirely.
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > ways of responding to some UNCLOS violations while continuing to adhere to it Sure. It's still, ultimately, a unilateraly rewriting of the terms. Something states can do in international law that individuals can't in a nation with the rule of law. > because some states are violating it doesn't mean that we should throw the entire thing overboard entirely Nobody is suggesting that. My point is we should be more open to such rewritings given they're commonly taking place. It doesn't make sense for Europe to treat UNCLOS as binding law when Russia, China and hell America treat is as nice-to-have guidelines. International agreements were treated as law in the post-WWII era. That era ended some time after the fall of the Soviet Union. Slowly. Then suddenly. They're now closer to LOIs. Some countries are realising this quickly. Others more slowly.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]