14 ms·

Yes, I am aware of those arguments and I am inclined to agree with you. Compared to cultural artifacts which are mostly neutral in terms of externalities, relic

Yes, I am aware of those arguments and I am inclined to agree with you. Compared to cultural artifacts which are mostly neutral in terms of externalities, relics of the industrial era suffer more from the cobra effect. Others in this thread have bought up the future of ICEs and classic car preservation. Back in the early 2000s the US government offered people cash incentives to dispose of their fuel inefficient cars, and by disposal they meant running the engine with an abrasive liquid instead of oil until it is totally ruined beyond repair. Mechanics will tell you horror stories of rare car models being destroyed this way so the owners can claim a few hundred bucks from the DOT. I'm sure car collectors had a field day back then but with such a glut in the market they could not save everything that's worth saving. Shank Mods was able to obtain a copy of the service manual in English from somebody in the US. This fact probably means that the TV was sold on (or imported to) the domestic US market for a while. (Sony have always allowed individuals to order parts through an authorised service centre, and the latter often insist on requesting a repair manual first even if you are 100% sure of the part number) It's very likely that a number of them existed in the US only to be unceremoniously thrown out by their owners when LCD TVs became more popular. I bet nobody batted an eyelid when that happened.

ToucanLoucan 2y ago
> Back in the early 2000s the US government offered people cash incentives to dispose of their fuel inefficient cars, and by disposal they meant running the engine with an abrasive liquid instead of oil until it is totally ruined beyond repair. So. Fucking. Stupid. As though Joe Consumer with a V8 Mustang he puts a few thousand miles on per year is the boogeyman of climate change, and not, hell just off the dome: - Every standing military on planet Earth - The global shipping industry - The fossil fuel industry
- layla5alive 2y ago
  And agriculture
- Reason077 2y ago
  > "As though Joe Consumer with a V8 Mustang he puts a few thousand miles on per year is the boogeyman of climate change" Scrappage schemes target the smokey, rusty shit-boxes that are worth next to nothing. Not Joe Mustang's prized V8, which would be worth far more than the value of the incentive anyway. And when it comes to old cars, reducing local air pollution is often the major concern. Not just climate change.
  - ssl-3 2y ago
    Cash for Clunkers did exactly what it was intended to do: It screwed up the used car market for a very long time, simply by decreasing supply while demand remained. People still needed cars, and everything is relative. When used car prices go up relative to that of new cars, then new cars become relatively inexpensive. This helps sell more new cars. And back in the time of "too big to fail" auto industry bailouts, selling more new cars was kind of important. edit: And remember, there were restrictions for Cash for Clunkers. The car had to be less than 25 years old, it had to run, and it had to have been registered and insured for the last 12 months. It was deliberately designed to thin the pool of functional used vehicles. This program claimed revered cars like Audi Quattros and BMW E30s...along with V8 Mustangs. And once turned in, they were all quite purposefully destroyed: Sodium silicate replaced the engine oil and they were run at WOT until they seized, and then they were crushed just to be sure.
    - saturn8601 2y ago
      According to Wikipedia only about 677k vehicles were takes out of the market. In 2009 there were about 254 million registered cars in the US so did it really put a dent in the market? [0]:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Car_Allowance_Rebate_System https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Car_Allowance_Rebate_System [1]:https://www.statista.com/statistics/183505/number-of-vehicles-in-the-united-states-since-1990 https://www.statista.com/statistics/183505/number-of-vehicle...
      - ToucanLoucan 2y ago
        That's the number of "registered vehicles" in the US, which is going to include everything from Joe Everyman's Mazda to every single truck AT&T uses to maintain what they assert strongly is a data network (sorry little snark there). A better thing to compare to would be the number of used cars sold. A quick google says about 35 million sales are known for 2008, comprising dealer, private, and independent sales. Taking the 677k figure at face value, that would amount to roughly 2% of the "moving" supply of vehicles being removed from the market, and worth noting, the taxpayer paid for that. Also worth noting that figure is going to be inherently conservative, because that's "all used vehicle sales" which includes things like rental companies unloading older inventory, logistics companies selling trucks, that sort of thing. That isn't a ton but it also isn't nothing, and however you feel about it, that's 677,000 vehicles that were, according to the requirements laid out by the program, perfectly serviceable daily-driver vehicles that were in active use, that taxpayers paid to buy from consumers, strictly to destroy them. Irrespective of if it ruined the used market as the GP says, that's still a shit ton of perfectly usable machines that our government apportioned tax money to buy, and then paid contractors to destroy, on purpose.
- jmb99 2y ago
  Or the manufacture of new vehicles to replace perfectly serviceable old ones.
to11mtm 2y ago
> Others in this thread have bought up the future of ICEs and classic car preservation. Back in the early 2000s the US government offered people cash incentives to dispose of their fuel inefficient cars, and by disposal they meant running the engine with an abrasive liquid instead of oil until it is totally ruined beyond repair. Mechanics will tell you horror stories of rare car models being destroyed this way so the owners can claim a few hundred bucks from the DOT. I'm sure car collectors had a field day back then but with such a glut in the market they could not save everything that's worth saving. But what else happened with that? The glut ended. Used cars got more expensive relative to quality. And now the cost of a 'reliable used car' is far more than inflation adjusted for the time passed. getting back on topic... > unceremoniously thrown out by their owners when LCD TVs became more popular. I bet nobody batted an eyelid when that happened. IDK about all that, during the 'LCD Phase-in' everyone I knew either donated theirs and/or moved CRTs into smaller rooms when they replaced a working one. Especially if it was 'Decent' TV, i.e. Progressive scan and component input... Let alone if the thing cost as much new as a very nice car of the day. The sheer responsibility of it (thinking more, you really can't throw this thing out unceremoniously, at minimum it's part of a house or business space eviction proceeding...) has some weight, ironically.
- Laforet 2y ago
  > everyone I knew either donated theirs and/or moved CRTs into smaller rooms when they replaced a working one. That might have happened for a while but by 2008-ish CRTs were being dumped left right and center. My city runs a annual kerbside collection program for large appliances and furniture, and I distinctly remember metal scavengers cruising the street gutting old CRTs people have left out for the copper coils, leaving whatever remains to be collected as hazardous e-waste. Around the same time, my parents got rid of a 16:10 CRT IDTV they bought in the 90s and semi-forced me to throw out a 21 inch IBM P275 I had because "it's using too much power". In any case I doubt any corporate (or rich household) owner of a 47 inch CRT back then would think too much about replacing it with a larger screen that took up less space. After all it's just another piece of asset that has depreciated to zero value on their books.
  - 2y ago
eru 2y ago
> Others in this thread have bought up the future of ICEs and classic car preservation. Back in the early 2000s the US government offered people cash incentives to dispose of their fuel inefficient cars, and by disposal they meant running the engine with an abrasive liquid instead of oil until it is totally ruined beyond repair. Could you elaborate?
- Laforet 2y ago
  https://www.businessinsider.com/henry-blodget-this-is-too-absurd-to-even-describe-2009-8 https://www.businessinsider.com/henry-blodget-this-is-too-ab...
  - eru 2y ago
    Thanks! Those were wild times. I remember they also had a similar scheme in Germany. Absolute madness (and that's even if you ignore the useless damage to old cars.) They should have just printed more money to juice the economy, instead of these wild schemes to give subsidies to specific industries.
- rasz 2y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrappage_program https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrappage_program Cash for Clunkers - 700,000 cars SCRAPPED by the USA Government https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZMJ_oNtzzE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZMJ_oNtzzE UK had its own program in 2009 https://www.banpei.net/2010/04/07/wtf-mr2-sw20-in-british-cash-for-clunkers https://www.banpei.net/2010/04/07/wtf-mr2-sw20-in-british-ca... All the cars lost to the 2009 Scrappage Scheme - The UK SCRAPPED all these rare cars?! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLLNOUUqCUc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLLNOUUqCUc

ToucanLoucan 2y ago

> Back in the early 2000s the US government offered people cash incentives to dispose of their fuel inefficient cars, and by disposal they meant running the engine with an abrasive liquid instead of oil until it is totally ruined beyond repair. So. Fucking. Stupid. As though Joe Consumer with a V8 Mustang he puts a few thousand miles on per year is the boogeyman of climate change, and not, hell just off the dome: - Every standing military on planet Earth - The global shipping industry - The fossil fuel industry

layla5alive 2y ago
And agriculture
Reason077 2y ago
> "As though Joe Consumer with a V8 Mustang he puts a few thousand miles on per year is the boogeyman of climate change" Scrappage schemes target the smokey, rusty shit-boxes that are worth next to nothing. Not Joe Mustang's prized V8, which would be worth far more than the value of the incentive anyway. And when it comes to old cars, reducing local air pollution is often the major concern. Not just climate change.
- ssl-3 2y ago
  Cash for Clunkers did exactly what it was intended to do: It screwed up the used car market for a very long time, simply by decreasing supply while demand remained. People still needed cars, and everything is relative. When used car prices go up relative to that of new cars, then new cars become relatively inexpensive. This helps sell more new cars. And back in the time of "too big to fail" auto industry bailouts, selling more new cars was kind of important. edit: And remember, there were restrictions for Cash for Clunkers. The car had to be less than 25 years old, it had to run, and it had to have been registered and insured for the last 12 months. It was deliberately designed to thin the pool of functional used vehicles. This program claimed revered cars like Audi Quattros and BMW E30s...along with V8 Mustangs. And once turned in, they were all quite purposefully destroyed: Sodium silicate replaced the engine oil and they were run at WOT until they seized, and then they were crushed just to be sure.
  - saturn8601 2y ago
    According to Wikipedia only about 677k vehicles were takes out of the market. In 2009 there were about 254 million registered cars in the US so did it really put a dent in the market? [0]:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Car_Allowance_Rebate_System https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Car_Allowance_Rebate_System [1]:https://www.statista.com/statistics/183505/number-of-vehicles-in-the-united-states-since-1990 https://www.statista.com/statistics/183505/number-of-vehicle...
    - ToucanLoucan 2y ago
      That's the number of "registered vehicles" in the US, which is going to include everything from Joe Everyman's Mazda to every single truck AT&T uses to maintain what they assert strongly is a data network (sorry little snark there). A better thing to compare to would be the number of used cars sold. A quick google says about 35 million sales are known for 2008, comprising dealer, private, and independent sales. Taking the 677k figure at face value, that would amount to roughly 2% of the "moving" supply of vehicles being removed from the market, and worth noting, the taxpayer paid for that. Also worth noting that figure is going to be inherently conservative, because that's "all used vehicle sales" which includes things like rental companies unloading older inventory, logistics companies selling trucks, that sort of thing. That isn't a ton but it also isn't nothing, and however you feel about it, that's 677,000 vehicles that were, according to the requirements laid out by the program, perfectly serviceable daily-driver vehicles that were in active use, that taxpayers paid to buy from consumers, strictly to destroy them. Irrespective of if it ruined the used market as the GP says, that's still a shit ton of perfectly usable machines that our government apportioned tax money to buy, and then paid contractors to destroy, on purpose.
jmb99 2y ago
Or the manufacture of new vehicles to replace perfectly serviceable old ones.

to11mtm 2y ago

> Others in this thread have bought up the future of ICEs and classic car preservation. Back in the early 2000s the US government offered people cash incentives to dispose of their fuel inefficient cars, and by disposal they meant running the engine with an abrasive liquid instead of oil until it is totally ruined beyond repair. Mechanics will tell you horror stories of rare car models being destroyed this way so the owners can claim a few hundred bucks from the DOT. I'm sure car collectors had a field day back then but with such a glut in the market they could not save everything that's worth saving. But what else happened with that? The glut ended. Used cars got more expensive relative to quality. And now the cost of a 'reliable used car' is far more than inflation adjusted for the time passed. getting back on topic... > unceremoniously thrown out by their owners when LCD TVs became more popular. I bet nobody batted an eyelid when that happened. IDK about all that, during the 'LCD Phase-in' everyone I knew either donated theirs and/or moved CRTs into smaller rooms when they replaced a working one. Especially if it was 'Decent' TV, i.e. Progressive scan and component input... Let alone if the thing cost as much new as a very nice car of the day. The sheer responsibility of it (thinking more, you really can't throw this thing out unceremoniously, at minimum it's part of a house or business space eviction proceeding...) has some weight, ironically.

Laforet 2y ago
> everyone I knew either donated theirs and/or moved CRTs into smaller rooms when they replaced a working one. That might have happened for a while but by 2008-ish CRTs were being dumped left right and center. My city runs a annual kerbside collection program for large appliances and furniture, and I distinctly remember metal scavengers cruising the street gutting old CRTs people have left out for the copper coils, leaving whatever remains to be collected as hazardous e-waste. Around the same time, my parents got rid of a 16:10 CRT IDTV they bought in the 90s and semi-forced me to throw out a 21 inch IBM P275 I had because "it's using too much power". In any case I doubt any corporate (or rich household) owner of a 47 inch CRT back then would think too much about replacing it with a larger screen that took up less space. After all it's just another piece of asset that has depreciated to zero value on their books.
- 2y ago

eru 2y ago

Laforet 2y ago
https://www.businessinsider.com/henry-blodget-this-is-too-absurd-to-even-describe-2009-8 https://www.businessinsider.com/henry-blodget-this-is-too-ab...
- eru 2y ago
  Thanks! Those were wild times. I remember they also had a similar scheme in Germany. Absolute madness (and that's even if you ignore the useless damage to old cars.) They should have just printed more money to juice the economy, instead of these wild schemes to give subsidies to specific industries.
rasz 2y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrappage_program https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrappage_program Cash for Clunkers - 700,000 cars SCRAPPED by the USA Government https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZMJ_oNtzzE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZMJ_oNtzzE UK had its own program in 2009 https://www.banpei.net/2010/04/07/wtf-mr2-sw20-in-british-cash-for-clunkers https://www.banpei.net/2010/04/07/wtf-mr2-sw20-in-british-ca... All the cars lost to the 2009 Scrappage Scheme - The UK SCRAPPED all these rare cars?! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLLNOUUqCUc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLLNOUUqCUc