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Ok, but then what is a way to do it? The text gives an example to the core problem, and to argue differently requires thinking around it. In practice. I’ve se

Ok, but then what is a way to do it? The text gives an example to the core problem, and to argue differently requires thinking around it. In practice. I’ve seen many attempts at measuring productivity, but once you dig into them, you see they are just abstraction mechanisms above something that is similar to lines of code. I have yet to see an idea that sidesteps the core issue described in this post. Also, it applies to many types of work, and software is not unique in any way.

nemomarx 2y ago
profit generated I think is the high level one, and then you want to dig from there into how much the software development contributed to this.
- nomel 2y ago
  That's very tricky thing to quantify, especially with "unsung heroes". If my work is in preventing problems, the guy that fixes problems will be seen as the one that contributes more to profit, since impact is directly observed/measured. This is something that one of the orgs I worked for eventually realized. The people f'ing up, and then fixing their mistakes, were the ones getting promotions/bonuses/raises, because they were the ones interacting with all the execs.
bruce511 2y ago
Happy Customers. All other measures are a proxy for happy customers. Actually, happy customers is also a proxy (the real measure is profits) but measuring profits directly (in the short term) can lead to decisions that have adverse long term effects. It's too easy to increase profits in the short term by avoiding long-term expenses. So, if you're in the business of software, the goal is happy customers. (And I use the word Customers carefully here. Not just Users who pay nothing, but Customers who spend money.) In a business context, it's really the only thing that matters. But, of course, it can be hard to measure (are they Happy?) and relies on multiple disciplines. Production (coding), Marketing, Sales, Support, Documentation, Training- all need to be working well to make it work. Ultimately if the big picture doesn't lead to Happy Customers (again, I stress, in a businesses context) then no-one is "being productive."
- n4r9 2y ago
  Arguably the business is aiming for Paying Customers, not necessarily Happy ones :)
  - bruce511 2y ago
    I chose happy for a reason :) So the business is chasing profits. In the short term that means customers paying money - any will do (happy or unhappy). But in the long term, happy is the key. Happy customers are the single biggest marketing tool you have. Happy customers promote and recommend you. Unhappy customers do the opposite (and are more effective at doing so.) So, if the metric stops at Customers then you are greatly missing the long-term value. Since a good business is planning for the long term, not just right now, Happy customers I the correct metric. Remember, you ultimately get what you measure (no more).
    - Cthulhu_ 2y ago
      > Happy customers are the single biggest marketing tool you have. Happy customers promote and recommend you. Unhappy customers do the opposite (and are more effective at doing so.) And yet, there's some irrational counter examples; there's video games that has huge detractors while having huge financial success. Negative reviews on Steam, "4000 hours played". The metrics say they aren't happy with the product... but they still play it, talk about it, may have pulled in friends to play it, and spend money on it. People can be unhappy about a product but still pay and promote it, counter-intuitively. Of course, the unhappiness is what they say, their behaviour says otherwise so for the sake of the metrics they would be considered happy I suppose?
- hammock 2y ago
  It’s demand. How much demand is there for your product As the other commenter pointed out, happy customers means nothing if they aren’t actively paying you
- virgilp 2y ago
  When a measure becomes the objective, it ceases to be a good measure. Even if you could perfectly measure customer happiness (very hard, as you note) - it's relatively easy to make customers happy by giving them more value than what they pay for. Sure, that may cost your business more money than what it makes with said customers, but hey, who cares, "profit" was not the metric... (and as you note, if you make "profit" the metric, that has its own set of challenges - e.g. the optimization towards short-term profit in detriment of the long-term sanity, which is what we observe in a lot of corporations).
foobiekr 2y ago
Revenue per employee $ spent.
eacapeisfutuile 2y ago
As already mentioned, people measure value return by revenue gain. It is irrelevant to attribute it to some construct like a line of code.
dfabulich 2y ago
I recommend measuring job satisfaction instead of developer productivity. It's the "least bad" proxy metric I know of. https://redfin.engineering/measure-job-satisfaction-instead-of-software-engineering-productivity-418779ce3451 https://redfin.engineering/measure-job-satisfaction-instead-...
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- musicale 2y ago
  The interesting corollary to this approach seems to be that productivity barriers are largely external. A potential riske seems to be feedback systems where job satisfaction is determined by high or low pay.

nemomarx 2y ago

profit generated I think is the high level one, and then you want to dig from there into how much the software development contributed to this.

nomel 2y ago
That's very tricky thing to quantify, especially with "unsung heroes". If my work is in preventing problems, the guy that fixes problems will be seen as the one that contributes more to profit, since impact is directly observed/measured. This is something that one of the orgs I worked for eventually realized. The people f'ing up, and then fixing their mistakes, were the ones getting promotions/bonuses/raises, because they were the ones interacting with all the execs.

bruce511 2y ago

Happy Customers. All other measures are a proxy for happy customers. Actually, happy customers is also a proxy (the real measure is profits) but measuring profits directly (in the short term) can lead to decisions that have adverse long term effects. It's too easy to increase profits in the short term by avoiding long-term expenses. So, if you're in the business of software, the goal is happy customers. (And I use the word Customers carefully here. Not just Users who pay nothing, but Customers who spend money.) In a business context, it's really the only thing that matters. But, of course, it can be hard to measure (are they Happy?) and relies on multiple disciplines. Production (coding), Marketing, Sales, Support, Documentation, Training- all need to be working well to make it work. Ultimately if the big picture doesn't lead to Happy Customers (again, I stress, in a businesses context) then no-one is "being productive."

n4r9 2y ago
Arguably the business is aiming for Paying Customers, not necessarily Happy ones :)
- bruce511 2y ago
  I chose happy for a reason :) So the business is chasing profits. In the short term that means customers paying money - any will do (happy or unhappy). But in the long term, happy is the key. Happy customers are the single biggest marketing tool you have. Happy customers promote and recommend you. Unhappy customers do the opposite (and are more effective at doing so.) So, if the metric stops at Customers then you are greatly missing the long-term value. Since a good business is planning for the long term, not just right now, Happy customers I the correct metric. Remember, you ultimately get what you measure (no more).
  - Cthulhu_ 2y ago
    > Happy customers are the single biggest marketing tool you have. Happy customers promote and recommend you. Unhappy customers do the opposite (and are more effective at doing so.) And yet, there's some irrational counter examples; there's video games that has huge detractors while having huge financial success. Negative reviews on Steam, "4000 hours played". The metrics say they aren't happy with the product... but they still play it, talk about it, may have pulled in friends to play it, and spend money on it. People can be unhappy about a product but still pay and promote it, counter-intuitively. Of course, the unhappiness is what they say, their behaviour says otherwise so for the sake of the metrics they would be considered happy I suppose?
hammock 2y ago
It’s demand. How much demand is there for your product As the other commenter pointed out, happy customers means nothing if they aren’t actively paying you
virgilp 2y ago
When a measure becomes the objective, it ceases to be a good measure. Even if you could perfectly measure customer happiness (very hard, as you note) - it's relatively easy to make customers happy by giving them more value than what they pay for. Sure, that may cost your business more money than what it makes with said customers, but hey, who cares, "profit" was not the metric... (and as you note, if you make "profit" the metric, that has its own set of challenges - e.g. the optimization towards short-term profit in detriment of the long-term sanity, which is what we observe in a lot of corporations).

foobiekr 2y ago

Revenue per employee $ spent.

eacapeisfutuile 2y ago

As already mentioned, people measure value return by revenue gain. It is irrelevant to attribute it to some construct like a line of code.

dfabulich 2y ago

I recommend measuring job satisfaction instead of developer productivity. It's the "least bad" proxy metric I know of. https://redfin.engineering/measure-job-satisfaction-instead-of-software-engineering-productivity-418779ce3451 https://redfin.engineering/measure-job-satisfaction-instead-...

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
musicale 2y ago
The interesting corollary to this approach seems to be that productivity barriers are largely external. A potential riske seems to be feedback systems where job satisfaction is determined by high or low pay.