6 ms·

The flair 58 is 600+. So it's slightly more, but from a new manufacturer and has a unique design. I expected it to be at least a $1000, so I think it's definite

The flair 58 is 600+. So it's slightly more, but from a new manufacturer and has a unique design. I expected it to be at least a $1000, so I think it's definitely price competitive. Though I'd hold off until reviews come in.

Kirby64 2y ago
So, the Flair 58 is their 'highest end' model and sports a 58mm portafilter... this thing is a 51mm portafilter which is basically only used on smaller portable machines. Also, it's listed on their website for $580. Not sure how you get to 600+ (unless you include tax, I guess). A more comparable model from Flair would be either the Pro 3 ($325, all metal in the grouphead, pressure gauge, shot mirror... lots of included accessories) or the cheaper models they offer (Classic w/ pressure gauge, $230, Neo Flex, $99). If you wanted to compare to the Cafelat Robot, that is also only $450... and is all metal, built like a tank, and has a very charming aesthetic.
- smeeeeeeeeeeeee 2y ago
  I love all these machines that we're comparing to but they're fundamentally different things - they don't have a pump to fit into their BOM. So maybe: In the category of "machines that don't froth milk", it might be the most expensive by $50. In the category of "machines that have pressure control", it might be the cheapest by $700 In the category of "machines that have a rotary pump", it might be the cheapest by $2000. It's sort of the curse of making something that doesn't clearly fit into a specific category. 51mm portafilters are better and some day the world will come to understand https://youtu.be/jTAkb-dCFro?si=QQ6K9l99xqOCQl5S https://youtu.be/jTAkb-dCFro?si=QQ6K9l99xqOCQl5S
  - roflyear 2y ago
    The Met doesn't do milk and it is way more expensive, and similar to what you are doing, I think.
    - Kirby64 2y ago
      The Meticulous is a lower end competition with the Decent Espresso DE1, or a more upscale version of the DIY stuff like Gaggiuino. Given the author has given us essentially nothing regarding what is actually controllable (besides pressure control?), it's unclear to me what you even can do with it. A simple pressure control is pretty basic and not at all comparable to the Meticulous or a DE1.
      - roflyear 2y ago
        OP's machine features are: - Group preheat (so it has some kind of heater) - "Fully adjustable power" - ??? It does seem that the water tube either goes to a kettle and the pump is in the machine, or it goes to a pump, that you then need to attach to a machine, and that clear line is pressurized. It does potentially have one feature the met doesn't (hinted at by allowing for filter brews): it'll be able to use up the entire water source, not a small amount of water you pour into the machine (similar to the Decent). Edit: based on the manual just added, it seems like the pump is in the machine.
        Kirby64 2y ago
        Best I can tell, with the manual released, this is literally just a pump and a group head. The dial appears to control the pump 'power' (voltage, I assume), and that's about it. I'm really, really not seeing what could possibly justify this price. If the 'control' is just as simple as an analog knob, then this is no different than adding 'flow control' via a common dimmer switch to any other pump. I've done this modification on vibratory pump models myself, and they function just fine when dimer switch modded.
        roflyear 2y ago
        "Just a pump with a group head" is still pretty cool. It isn't revolutionary, temp control is a "big deal" in the community, but it's pretty cool that OP created that. The pump absolutely is a "big deal" though if they can deliver on it. It has been attempted (Decent is trying to make one - actually they have been trying for years) and no one has delivered on a pump like that to date.
  - Kirby64 2y ago
    No offense, but we're not really comparing different things. You're offering an espresso machine that fundamentally has: * No heating control * No tank/water storage * No milk frothing capability The obvious comparison is a manual (lever) espresso machine that does not offer its own heating capability. It offers pressure control (via your arm) just fine. Also, besides noise complaints and possibly some questionable reasoning involving vibe pump longevity, I have yet to see a compelling reason a rotary pump is better. They're 'nicer' and offered in higher end stuff, but performance wise a very good vibe pump seems just fine. Flow rates are more than adequate for pretty much any normal brewing method. Regarding 51mm vs 58mm: you might be correct technically, but the ecosystem around accessories is firmly in the 58mm camp. As far as I can tell, the difference is so marginal it doesn't really matter anyways. Puck prep and other things will matter more for the average user.

Kirby64 2y ago

So, the Flair 58 is their 'highest end' model and sports a 58mm portafilter... this thing is a 51mm portafilter which is basically only used on smaller portable machines. Also, it's listed on their website for $580. Not sure how you get to 600+ (unless you include tax, I guess). A more comparable model from Flair would be either the Pro 3 ($325, all metal in the grouphead, pressure gauge, shot mirror... lots of included accessories) or the cheaper models they offer (Classic w/ pressure gauge, $230, Neo Flex, $99). If you wanted to compare to the Cafelat Robot, that is also only $450... and is all metal, built like a tank, and has a very charming aesthetic.

smeeeeeeeeeeeee 2y ago
I love all these machines that we're comparing to but they're fundamentally different things - they don't have a pump to fit into their BOM. So maybe: In the category of "machines that don't froth milk", it might be the most expensive by $50. In the category of "machines that have pressure control", it might be the cheapest by $700 In the category of "machines that have a rotary pump", it might be the cheapest by $2000. It's sort of the curse of making something that doesn't clearly fit into a specific category. 51mm portafilters are better and some day the world will come to understand https://youtu.be/jTAkb-dCFro?si=QQ6K9l99xqOCQl5S https://youtu.be/jTAkb-dCFro?si=QQ6K9l99xqOCQl5S
- roflyear 2y ago
  The Met doesn't do milk and it is way more expensive, and similar to what you are doing, I think.
  - Kirby64 2y ago
    The Meticulous is a lower end competition with the Decent Espresso DE1, or a more upscale version of the DIY stuff like Gaggiuino. Given the author has given us essentially nothing regarding what is actually controllable (besides pressure control?), it's unclear to me what you even can do with it. A simple pressure control is pretty basic and not at all comparable to the Meticulous or a DE1.
    - roflyear 2y ago
      OP's machine features are: - Group preheat (so it has some kind of heater) - "Fully adjustable power" - ??? It does seem that the water tube either goes to a kettle and the pump is in the machine, or it goes to a pump, that you then need to attach to a machine, and that clear line is pressurized. It does potentially have one feature the met doesn't (hinted at by allowing for filter brews): it'll be able to use up the entire water source, not a small amount of water you pour into the machine (similar to the Decent). Edit: based on the manual just added, it seems like the pump is in the machine.
      - Kirby64 2y ago
        Best I can tell, with the manual released, this is literally just a pump and a group head. The dial appears to control the pump 'power' (voltage, I assume), and that's about it. I'm really, really not seeing what could possibly justify this price. If the 'control' is just as simple as an analog knob, then this is no different than adding 'flow control' via a common dimmer switch to any other pump. I've done this modification on vibratory pump models myself, and they function just fine when dimer switch modded.
        roflyear 2y ago
        "Just a pump with a group head" is still pretty cool. It isn't revolutionary, temp control is a "big deal" in the community, but it's pretty cool that OP created that. The pump absolutely is a "big deal" though if they can deliver on it. It has been attempted (Decent is trying to make one - actually they have been trying for years) and no one has delivered on a pump like that to date.
- Kirby64 2y ago
  No offense, but we're not really comparing different things. You're offering an espresso machine that fundamentally has: * No heating control * No tank/water storage * No milk frothing capability The obvious comparison is a manual (lever) espresso machine that does not offer its own heating capability. It offers pressure control (via your arm) just fine. Also, besides noise complaints and possibly some questionable reasoning involving vibe pump longevity, I have yet to see a compelling reason a rotary pump is better. They're 'nicer' and offered in higher end stuff, but performance wise a very good vibe pump seems just fine. Flow rates are more than adequate for pretty much any normal brewing method. Regarding 51mm vs 58mm: you might be correct technically, but the ecosystem around accessories is firmly in the 58mm camp. As far as I can tell, the difference is so marginal it doesn't really matter anyways. Puck prep and other things will matter more for the average user.