8 ms·

>If a male were to sexually harass a female, it would not be sexism because he is not giving males special preference over females Well, seeing how he's not se

by swa14 14y ago

>If a male were to sexually harass a female, it would not be sexism because he is not giving males special preference over females Well, seeing how he's not sexually harassing the males I'd say there's a noted difference in "special preference". Anyway, I'd argue that sexism is almost inherent to any sexual harassment, as the male put himself in a position of power/dominance based on little more than gender difference and the perceived inequality/role expectations that go along with that.

jack-r-abbit 14y ago
Not that I agree with the other person but by your logic everyone (who is not bi-sexual) practices sexism because they have a "special preference" to relationships with one gender over another. If the OP of the article had all those same things done to her (ass grabbing, pillow fight invitations, etc) by gay women, would that still be considered "sexism" or just sexual harassment? People sometimes forget that sexual harassment is not always a "Man on Woman" action. There is a 2x2 matrix of how that can go down.
- drostie 14y ago
  I can't hammer this home enough: it's institutional, the sexism that's going on here. That is, the pillow-fight invitation is not by itself sexism; the sexism is that we live in a world where a man might consider it acceptable to burst into a conversation without prompting and ask a woman to his room for a private pillowfight party, for the sexual gratification of onlooking men. It's not the act, it's the environment which makes the act possible, and the environment which the act fosters, which constitute the sexism. In practice we can therefore label the act itself as 'sexist' -- but the criticism that the act 'is not literally sexist' or what have you deeply misses the point. If this had been done by gay women, the problem would still be that those gay women somehow felt entitled to make such a request of women. The problem is that a woman was, purely due to her sex, "lowered beneath" a baseline of human decency, if you wish. There might be a legitimate question of "what if we lowered the baseline?" but there is no legitimate question of "what if the person who lowered her was a woman?"
  - jack-r-abbit 14y ago
    If I understand you correctly, you are saying that the act of inviting a woman to a pillow fight is sexism regardless of the gender of the requester. If so then we can agree that the act is equally <what ever label you use>. We may disagree on what that label is. If you label it sexism, that is your choice. I would call that rude or aggressively forward. However, if you are thinking that it is only sexism if the requester is a male, then I think we'll have to agree to disagree completely because I am not going to buy into such gender based biases.
    - drostie 14y ago
      I'm not sure you do understand. The point is rather, "yes, it is rude and aggressively forward. Added onto that, the fact that someone felt free to do it, is sexism. And, the global environment that it creates is also sexism." It is a sexist request in the sense that it was constructed by, and constructs, sexism. It does not directly oppress anyone, that is true -- but that is irrelevant, because that isn't the only mechanism of sexism (and isn't even the dominant mechanism).
      - jack-r-abbit 14y ago
        As long as we are agreeing that it is <what ever> regardless of who does it, I really don't care what you label it. That was my point. You can believe it is sexism. I will believe it is not. I don't have to believe it is sexism to think the behavior is bad. It is bad regardless. However, I believe labeling it as sexism is overly harsh due to what that label implies. I don't believe that label is deserved.
  - gavanwoolery 14y ago
    I see an environment that values females sexually. Yes, there are plenty of instances where males are rude to females, but the reverse is true as well. Have you ever watched the way some females gun down males in a bar, even when they approach kindly? This is not sexism, it is sexuality. We are attracted to women, and in fact often give them special bias due to their sex (do women hold the door open for males? Who pays for dinner more often, males or females? Who buys the other person a drink? Who buys the wedding ring? Which sex is allowed to slap/punch the opposite sex? Who has to resort to saying "yes dear" more? Which sex gets let past the line in a club? Which sex apologizes more?). Just because there are isolated incidences of sexism does not mean that the US as a whole is generally sexist (I assure you, it is not - the male race cannot afford all the lawsuits). If anything, the sexism is in favor of females, as no one would call it sexist if a female groped a man, invited them to a pillow fight party, etc.

by swa14 14y ago

jack-r-abbit 14y ago

Not that I agree with the other person but by your logic everyone (who is not bi-sexual) practices sexism because they have a "special preference" to relationships with one gender over another. If the OP of the article had all those same things done to her (ass grabbing, pillow fight invitations, etc) by gay women, would that still be considered "sexism" or just sexual harassment? People sometimes forget that sexual harassment is not always a "Man on Woman" action. There is a 2x2 matrix of how that can go down.

drostie 14y ago
I can't hammer this home enough: it's institutional, the sexism that's going on here. That is, the pillow-fight invitation is not by itself sexism; the sexism is that we live in a world where a man might consider it acceptable to burst into a conversation without prompting and ask a woman to his room for a private pillowfight party, for the sexual gratification of onlooking men. It's not the act, it's the environment which makes the act possible, and the environment which the act fosters, which constitute the sexism. In practice we can therefore label the act itself as 'sexist' -- but the criticism that the act 'is not literally sexist' or what have you deeply misses the point. If this had been done by gay women, the problem would still be that those gay women somehow felt entitled to make such a request of women. The problem is that a woman was, purely due to her sex, "lowered beneath" a baseline of human decency, if you wish. There might be a legitimate question of "what if we lowered the baseline?" but there is no legitimate question of "what if the person who lowered her was a woman?"
- jack-r-abbit 14y ago
  If I understand you correctly, you are saying that the act of inviting a woman to a pillow fight is sexism regardless of the gender of the requester. If so then we can agree that the act is equally <what ever label you use>. We may disagree on what that label is. If you label it sexism, that is your choice. I would call that rude or aggressively forward. However, if you are thinking that it is only sexism if the requester is a male, then I think we'll have to agree to disagree completely because I am not going to buy into such gender based biases.
  - drostie 14y ago
    I'm not sure you do understand. The point is rather, "yes, it is rude and aggressively forward. Added onto that, the fact that someone felt free to do it, is sexism. And, the global environment that it creates is also sexism." It is a sexist request in the sense that it was constructed by, and constructs, sexism. It does not directly oppress anyone, that is true -- but that is irrelevant, because that isn't the only mechanism of sexism (and isn't even the dominant mechanism).
    - jack-r-abbit 14y ago
      As long as we are agreeing that it is <what ever> regardless of who does it, I really don't care what you label it. That was my point. You can believe it is sexism. I will believe it is not. I don't have to believe it is sexism to think the behavior is bad. It is bad regardless. However, I believe labeling it as sexism is overly harsh due to what that label implies. I don't believe that label is deserved.
- gavanwoolery 14y ago
  I see an environment that values females sexually. Yes, there are plenty of instances where males are rude to females, but the reverse is true as well. Have you ever watched the way some females gun down males in a bar, even when they approach kindly? This is not sexism, it is sexuality. We are attracted to women, and in fact often give them special bias due to their sex (do women hold the door open for males? Who pays for dinner more often, males or females? Who buys the other person a drink? Who buys the wedding ring? Which sex is allowed to slap/punch the opposite sex? Who has to resort to saying "yes dear" more? Which sex gets let past the line in a club? Which sex apologizes more?). Just because there are isolated incidences of sexism does not mean that the US as a whole is generally sexist (I assure you, it is not - the male race cannot afford all the lawsuits). If anything, the sexism is in favor of females, as no one would call it sexist if a female groped a man, invited them to a pillow fight party, etc.