7 ms·

Does this happen at non-IT parties where a lot of men gather to get drunk and to try and socialize? I admit I'm not much of a party person, but from what I have

Does this happen at non-IT parties where a lot of men gather to get drunk and to try and socialize? I admit I'm not much of a party person, but from what I have seen, the answer is yes. I do not believe this has got anything to do with IT nor with sexism. If you are an attractive woman (relative to the attending male population), you are going to attract attention. That is how men are wired. That is our culture. Men have to approach women, or they don't laid. Pure speculation, but the man who grabbed the woman's ass probably did it because he was in a mischievous mood, and to express his sexuality, and he probably needed to do something like that and get away with it to be happy. In other contexts, the victim might even have smiled at him (or punched him with a smile on her face). That might be what he needed. I grab my girlfriend's ass sometimes and it feels good to be allowed to do that. The problem is probably that these are men that don't get out much, have low social skills, don't have experience with how to express their sexuality in an appropriate way, and things go wrong. And things go wrong in ways that make women very uncomfortable. The problem is probably not that women are not being respected or valued. To me, sexism would be like automatically assuming a woman is not going to be able to perform some task, because she is a woman. Grabbing someone's ass is not sexism, it's inappropriate sexuality. What can we do about it? Teach men how to express their sexuality in a way that works. Teach men that there are places women go to when they want to receive that kind of attention, teach them to recognize the signals, and teach them that IT conferences are not one of those places. The cards are a really good idea just because it makes men aware that they are making her uncomfortable. Believe it or not, most do not realize.

michaelt 14y ago
> The problem is probably not that women are not being respected or valued. What the hell else do you call it when someone grabs your ass? No-one grabs my ass at hacker conferences. You know why? Because I'm a man.
derleth 14y ago
> Men have to approach women, or they don't laid. Hopefully, a reduction of sexism in our society will also change things like this. A longish article on the general subject of how sexism hurts men, too: http://www.alternet.org/reproductivejustice/156194/what_about_the_men_why_our_gender_system_sucks_for_men%2C_too?page=entire http://www.alternet.org/reproductivejustice/156194/what_abou...
- Jach 14y ago
  I came across this quote some time ago: "I sincerely believe that if women study male lessons on concepts of assertion, courage, destiny, purpose, honor, dreams, endeavor, perseverance, goal orientation, etc., they would have a more fulfilling life, pick better men with whom to be intimate, and have better relationships with them." - from Ten Stupid Things Women Do to Mess Up Their Lives, a book by Laura C. Schlessinger It's just another expression that "fixing our society" goes both ways, sex-wise. But it's moving fast--where will we be in 20 years? Will My Little Pony fans lead the way? (I think they're taking themselves too seriously at this point, but who knows!) An amusing "patch" suggested by (I think it was him) a blogger moldbug is to make standardized, official lists of all the empirical "privileges" each group has (and every group has some, as the article mentioned), set up a national registry, and let people with such privileges sell them one-time-only for whatever price they can get.
- 2muchcoffeeman 14y ago
  I'd up vote you 100 times if I could. I am quite unsuccessful with women, but the women friends I have that have tried to give me advice tell me the same thing. It is my job to make the first move, plan a date and pay. I have never once got any useful advice on how to tell if a girl is actually interested though. Apparently I am supposed to potentially harass women until I get lucky!? I don't know. I don't think it is right to make someone else feel harassed cause I misinterpret friendliness as romantic interest. So I almost never ask girls out. The few times I have I was mostly wrong. It's very depressing. Rightly or wrongly, I think most guys are going to just try everything and see what sticks. So I don't think a significant reduction is harassment is likely anytime soon.
  - civilian 14y ago
    nods I'm with you, brother. This quote from Radiohead kind of comforts me, because I know it's a common problem that a lot of guys see. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creep_(Radiohead_song)#Composition_and_lyrics http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creep_(Radiohead_song)#Composit... > According to Yorke, "Creep" tells the tale of an inebriated man who tries to get the attention of a woman to whom he is attracted by following her around. In the end, he lacks the self-confidence to face her and feels he subconsciously is her. When asked about "Creep" in 1993, Yorke said, "I have a real problem being a man in the '90s... Any man with any sensitivity or conscience toward the opposite sex would have a problem. To actually assert yourself in a masculine way without looking like you're in a hard-rock band is a very difficult thing to do... " And this really isn't limited to Defcon. I've gone to raves and there are guys going around the crowd asking "wanna have sex?" to every chick they see. They'll learn soon enough that... that doesn't work, and it's probably inappropriate. Even for a rave. I don't think anyone really wants to leave their comfort zone. They want to feel safe, and approaching someone else makes them feel unsafe. Both sexes are going to do that, so, maybe it's up to us (men) to be the bigger party and bridge the gap. Take the discomfort, so that the women don't have to. It sucks, it's annoying, and by their unaction and our willingness for auction we are reenforcing gender stereotypes, but at least we can meet people that way.
token_female 14y ago
> I do not believe this has got anything to do with sexism > That is our culture Has it ever occurred to you that "our culture" might be a bit sexist? > Men have to approach women, or they don't get laid 1. Approach doesn't have to mean sexual harassment 2. Women can like sex too. And women can approach men too. mind blowing, no? > He probably needed to do something like that and get away with it to be happy? What? What if the "something like that" were rape? What if it were murder? This whole paragraph reeks of you not thinking women's consent/feelings on who touches them matter. > I grab my girlfriend's ass sometimes Can you really not see how this is different from grabbing the ass of a random stranger at a professional-ish conference? > Teach men how to express their sexuality in a way that works. Damn, I was really hoping you were going to end that sentence with something like "that doesn't make women very uncomfortable" or "that doesn't make women feel undervalued or disrespected". I guess this far into your post I should have realized that your "solution" would also be entirely from the man's perspective of "getting" sex from women. And herein lies the problem that both you and the men at the conference share: you view women primarily as a means to sexual gratification. If you view men primarily as intellectual peers and women first as sex objects and only secondarily as intellectual beings, that is sexism.
- gavanwoolery 14y ago
  News flash: all men, deep down, view (attractive) women as a potential means to their sexual gratification. We cannot suppress it, short of, you know, lopping it off. We also happen to respect, admire, love, and look up to a good deal of women...but that would not make a very interesting article to talk about that stuff. EDIT: for those who don't understand what I am saying, let me clarify: Take special note of my words above, particularly "DEEP DOWN" -- by this, I mean at the subconscious level, the id, human nature, whatever you want to call it. Yes, I can control my sex-drive like anyone else, and I don't go around raping women because I feel sexual attraction to them. Just as well, I am capable of feeling love without sexual connotations, but deep down I understand that the reason my brain loves is because it has found a worthy mate. Argue with Scientific American, not me, if you have a problem with that.
  - hythloday 14y ago

michaelt 14y ago

> The problem is probably not that women are not being respected or valued. What the hell else do you call it when someone grabs your ass? No-one grabs my ass at hacker conferences. You know why? Because I'm a man.

derleth 14y ago

> Men have to approach women, or they don't laid. Hopefully, a reduction of sexism in our society will also change things like this. A longish article on the general subject of how sexism hurts men, too: http://www.alternet.org/reproductivejustice/156194/what_about_the_men_why_our_gender_system_sucks_for_men%2C_too?page=entire http://www.alternet.org/reproductivejustice/156194/what_abou...

Jach 14y ago
I came across this quote some time ago: "I sincerely believe that if women study male lessons on concepts of assertion, courage, destiny, purpose, honor, dreams, endeavor, perseverance, goal orientation, etc., they would have a more fulfilling life, pick better men with whom to be intimate, and have better relationships with them." - from Ten Stupid Things Women Do to Mess Up Their Lives, a book by Laura C. Schlessinger It's just another expression that "fixing our society" goes both ways, sex-wise. But it's moving fast--where will we be in 20 years? Will My Little Pony fans lead the way? (I think they're taking themselves too seriously at this point, but who knows!) An amusing "patch" suggested by (I think it was him) a blogger moldbug is to make standardized, official lists of all the empirical "privileges" each group has (and every group has some, as the article mentioned), set up a national registry, and let people with such privileges sell them one-time-only for whatever price they can get.
2muchcoffeeman 14y ago
I'd up vote you 100 times if I could. I am quite unsuccessful with women, but the women friends I have that have tried to give me advice tell me the same thing. It is my job to make the first move, plan a date and pay. I have never once got any useful advice on how to tell if a girl is actually interested though. Apparently I am supposed to potentially harass women until I get lucky!? I don't know. I don't think it is right to make someone else feel harassed cause I misinterpret friendliness as romantic interest. So I almost never ask girls out. The few times I have I was mostly wrong. It's very depressing. Rightly or wrongly, I think most guys are going to just try everything and see what sticks. So I don't think a significant reduction is harassment is likely anytime soon.
- civilian 14y ago
  nods I'm with you, brother. This quote from Radiohead kind of comforts me, because I know it's a common problem that a lot of guys see. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creep_(Radiohead_song)#Composition_and_lyrics http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creep_(Radiohead_song)#Composit... > According to Yorke, "Creep" tells the tale of an inebriated man who tries to get the attention of a woman to whom he is attracted by following her around. In the end, he lacks the self-confidence to face her and feels he subconsciously is her. When asked about "Creep" in 1993, Yorke said, "I have a real problem being a man in the '90s... Any man with any sensitivity or conscience toward the opposite sex would have a problem. To actually assert yourself in a masculine way without looking like you're in a hard-rock band is a very difficult thing to do... " And this really isn't limited to Defcon. I've gone to raves and there are guys going around the crowd asking "wanna have sex?" to every chick they see. They'll learn soon enough that... that doesn't work, and it's probably inappropriate. Even for a rave. I don't think anyone really wants to leave their comfort zone. They want to feel safe, and approaching someone else makes them feel unsafe. Both sexes are going to do that, so, maybe it's up to us (men) to be the bigger party and bridge the gap. Take the discomfort, so that the women don't have to. It sucks, it's annoying, and by their unaction and our willingness for auction we are reenforcing gender stereotypes, but at least we can meet people that way.

token_female 14y ago

> I do not believe this has got anything to do with sexism > That is our culture Has it ever occurred to you that "our culture" might be a bit sexist? > Men have to approach women, or they don't get laid 1. Approach doesn't have to mean sexual harassment 2. Women can like sex too. And women can approach men too. mind blowing, no? > He probably needed to do something like that and get away with it to be happy? What? What if the "something like that" were rape? What if it were murder? This whole paragraph reeks of you not thinking women's consent/feelings on who touches them matter. > I grab my girlfriend's ass sometimes Can you really not see how this is different from grabbing the ass of a random stranger at a professional-ish conference? > Teach men how to express their sexuality in a way that works. Damn, I was really hoping you were going to end that sentence with something like "that doesn't make women very uncomfortable" or "that doesn't make women feel undervalued or disrespected". I guess this far into your post I should have realized that your "solution" would also be entirely from the man's perspective of "getting" sex from women. And herein lies the problem that both you and the men at the conference share: you view women primarily as a means to sexual gratification. If you view men primarily as intellectual peers and women first as sex objects and only secondarily as intellectual beings, that is sexism.

gavanwoolery 14y ago
News flash: all men, deep down, view (attractive) women as a potential means to their sexual gratification. We cannot suppress it, short of, you know, lopping it off. We also happen to respect, admire, love, and look up to a good deal of women...but that would not make a very interesting article to talk about that stuff. EDIT: for those who don't understand what I am saying, let me clarify: Take special note of my words above, particularly "DEEP DOWN" -- by this, I mean at the subconscious level, the id, human nature, whatever you want to call it. Yes, I can control my sex-drive like anyone else, and I don't go around raping women because I feel sexual attraction to them. Just as well, I am capable of feeling love without sexual connotations, but deep down I understand that the reason my brain loves is because it has found a worthy mate. Argue with Scientific American, not me, if you have a problem with that.
- hythloday 14y ago