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How bad you or I think he is is irrelevant. If the people's decision is overturned when the elite do not like it then the country isn't any kind of democracy.

data_maan 2y ago
How about overturning the result when the elite accepts it, but then discovers that he (or whoever helped him) actually manipulated people via TikTok? It's not really a true people's vote in that case any more, so it seems rather like defending democracy.
- jdck1326 2y ago
  My point is that our personal views on his positions and character are irrelevant. You seem to be discussing a different point.
  - datameta 2y ago
    You seem to be discussing the Romanian election in a vacuum divorced from the reality that Putin is doing everything in his power to sow chaos in Europe because the calculus just works for him.
    - RealityVoid 2y ago
      Democracy works because it leads to reasonable outcomes for the vas majority of the population. If the election itself leads to unreasonable ones, it ceases to be a good political system. You know about the old dilemma used for justifying the electoral college "the tyranny of the" majority". Well, me and my countrymen mostly judge that we were about to vote for tyranny in our country. An EC like approach wouldn't have stopped it because of the vote repartition, but only because of electors refusal to vote for a particular candidate. Well, actually, it kind of DID stop it because we had the CCR step in and declare the election null. This fetishizing of democracy need to take into account the safely valves baked into the law for situations like this and a safety valve just triggered.
- jokethrowaway 2y ago
  every form of communication is manipulation the only thing you can attack him for is the lack of reporting of election spending
RealityVoid 2y ago
What if it's so bad it would likely lead to lack of democracy? What then? How can democracy defend itself from democratically electing not to be a democracy anymore? Because make no mistake, this was what this election was about. You elect this guy, you kill democracy. Essentially, this guy's platform was "let's try dictatorship for a change".
- pclmulqdq 2y ago
  Then the choice you are offering is how you would like to kill democracy. Overturning a democratic election is a certain way to do it.
  - RealityVoid 2y ago
    Ok, then the answer is simple for me. We kill it with something that is not fascism. And we try to kill it with something that does not end with the suffering of millions of people. And we try to keep the best option that could lead to having a working democracy again in the shortest possible time.
    - yehat 2y ago
      Dude, you so much reveal what a brainwashing does to the people it is just unreal. We've seen that behavior few weeks ago after the US elections. How the evil has come now what we'll do etc. It is really a sad there're people who decide theirs truth is the only valid one.
      - RealityVoid 2y ago
        I think you don't fully grasp my point. But maybe I don't grasp yours. Can you explain further?
        jdhendrickson 2y ago
        Not much worth arguing about in this thread. Multiple sleeper accounts and coopted accounts with the same talking points about how someone who used illegal means to sway votes should just be allowed to take the reins of power with a fine. It's not logical and isn't real discussion just the same nefarious actors using social media to try to sway opinion. Get that good nights sleep and I'm glad your country didn't succumb to this new method of warfare like mine did.
andrepd 2y ago
What "elite" are you talking about? He broke multiple laws that would made him ineligible to run, and therefore he is ineligible to run. Can you explain what's wrong with this reasoning? It frankly speaks to your democratic culture, that you can only conceive of a candidate being prevented to run by a shady cabal of elites blocking the candidate they don't like. Yes how bad he is is irrelevant. I read GP's comment more about how utterly impossible it is for a single person to keep up, let alone fight, the torrent of hyper-optimised propaganda that a few tens of millions can buy on tiktok. Maybe this illustrates why mass social media manipulation skews democracy towards the highest bidder.
- tiahura 2y ago
  He broke multiple laws that would made him ineligible to run, and therefore he is ineligible to run. Do you have a link to his trial, conviction, and appeals? Was he given an opportunity to respond to the charges, provide his own witnesses and offer his own evidence? Does the constitution really say, “if foreigners on tik-tok give you too many likes, you may be disqualified”?

data_maan 2y ago

How about overturning the result when the elite accepts it, but then discovers that he (or whoever helped him) actually manipulated people via TikTok? It's not really a true people's vote in that case any more, so it seems rather like defending democracy.

jdck1326 2y ago
My point is that our personal views on his positions and character are irrelevant. You seem to be discussing a different point.
- datameta 2y ago
  You seem to be discussing the Romanian election in a vacuum divorced from the reality that Putin is doing everything in his power to sow chaos in Europe because the calculus just works for him.
  - RealityVoid 2y ago
    Democracy works because it leads to reasonable outcomes for the vas majority of the population. If the election itself leads to unreasonable ones, it ceases to be a good political system. You know about the old dilemma used for justifying the electoral college "the tyranny of the" majority". Well, me and my countrymen mostly judge that we were about to vote for tyranny in our country. An EC like approach wouldn't have stopped it because of the vote repartition, but only because of electors refusal to vote for a particular candidate. Well, actually, it kind of DID stop it because we had the CCR step in and declare the election null. This fetishizing of democracy need to take into account the safely valves baked into the law for situations like this and a safety valve just triggered.
jokethrowaway 2y ago
every form of communication is manipulation the only thing you can attack him for is the lack of reporting of election spending

RealityVoid 2y ago

What if it's so bad it would likely lead to lack of democracy? What then? How can democracy defend itself from democratically electing not to be a democracy anymore? Because make no mistake, this was what this election was about. You elect this guy, you kill democracy. Essentially, this guy's platform was "let's try dictatorship for a change".

pclmulqdq 2y ago
Then the choice you are offering is how you would like to kill democracy. Overturning a democratic election is a certain way to do it.
- RealityVoid 2y ago
  Ok, then the answer is simple for me. We kill it with something that is not fascism. And we try to kill it with something that does not end with the suffering of millions of people. And we try to keep the best option that could lead to having a working democracy again in the shortest possible time.
  - yehat 2y ago
    Dude, you so much reveal what a brainwashing does to the people it is just unreal. We've seen that behavior few weeks ago after the US elections. How the evil has come now what we'll do etc. It is really a sad there're people who decide theirs truth is the only valid one.
    - RealityVoid 2y ago
      I think you don't fully grasp my point. But maybe I don't grasp yours. Can you explain further?
      - jdhendrickson 2y ago
        Not much worth arguing about in this thread. Multiple sleeper accounts and coopted accounts with the same talking points about how someone who used illegal means to sway votes should just be allowed to take the reins of power with a fine. It's not logical and isn't real discussion just the same nefarious actors using social media to try to sway opinion. Get that good nights sleep and I'm glad your country didn't succumb to this new method of warfare like mine did.

andrepd 2y ago

What "elite" are you talking about? He broke multiple laws that would made him ineligible to run, and therefore he is ineligible to run. Can you explain what's wrong with this reasoning? It frankly speaks to your democratic culture, that you can only conceive of a candidate being prevented to run by a shady cabal of elites blocking the candidate they don't like. Yes how bad he is is irrelevant. I read GP's comment more about how utterly impossible it is for a single person to keep up, let alone fight, the torrent of hyper-optimised propaganda that a few tens of millions can buy on tiktok. Maybe this illustrates why mass social media manipulation skews democracy towards the highest bidder.

tiahura 2y ago
He broke multiple laws that would made him ineligible to run, and therefore he is ineligible to run. Do you have a link to his trial, conviction, and appeals? Was he given an opportunity to respond to the charges, provide his own witnesses and offer his own evidence? Does the constitution really say, “if foreigners on tik-tok give you too many likes, you may be disqualified”?