6 ms·

no it would save miami and the state and the federal government billions trirail frequency increases can be done overnight a greenway network can also be buil

by bedobi 2y ago

no it would save miami and the state and the federal government billions trirail frequency increases can be done overnight a greenway network can also be built quickly and cheaply metrorail extension would cost more but still less than it costs to build and maintain roads but they are too busy spending billions building even more car infra which will only make traffic and congestion even worse

onlyrealcuzzo 2y ago
> no it would save miami and the state and the federal government billions Have you ever looked at the local budget of a US transit authority? They typically lose $2+ per passenger trip, and get bailed out by the federal government. Mass transit is not going to save Miami any money for decades until ridership approaches Hong Kong levels. Unless you count passing on expenses to the Federal government as savings, and even then, it's still decades out.
- kemotep 2y ago
  With car usage on most roads free of charge at use and maintenance also footed largely by the Federal Government, it probably comes out cheaper long term to invest in rail. And every car off the toad makes driving more pleasant for everyone who stays.
- bedobi 2y ago
  lol the idea isn't to make money off transit, it's to save money on roads roads cost more than transit - a LOT more, and motorists aren't paying anywhere near the cost of road construction and maintenance, they're (quite literally) free-riding subsidized trips on the taxpayer traffic also destroys productivity, public health, life expectancy etc etc so costs money in many more ways than motorists not paying for them
  - onlyrealcuzzo 2y ago
    > and motorists aren't paying anywhere near the cost of road construction and maintenance, they're (quite literally) free-riding subsidized trips on the taxpayer So are public transit riders. And to a worse degree. What's your point? We should magically spawn mass transit systems overnight and force everyone to ride them? By the way, I'm a fan of mass transit, and live somewhere in the US - specifically - where that's a viable option. It just isn't a viable option in ~80% of the US, and even if those areas start doing everything right to be mass transit viable (no indication of that), it still takes decades. Rome wasn't built in a day.
    - bedobi 2y ago
      > So are public transit riders. And to a worse degree. What's your point? that this is wildly incorrect. roads cost more than transit. a lot more. and road users are wildly more subsidized than transit users. > We should magically spawn mass transit systems overnight yes > and force everyone to ride them? you won't have to when the choice is between sitting hours in traffic vs a fraction of the time on efficient transit and greenways. people are not stupid. > It just isn't a viable option in ~80% of the US this is Miami, not middle of nowhere Iowa > Rome wasn't built in a day so it's correct of Miami to continue to "invest" in even more roads to nowhere, like yet another new highway bridge across the bay? that will take decades to complete and cost billions, and cause MORE traffic? like no lol just build the effing transit and greenways and traffic will go down and the government and people alike will save billions instead (and their time, and lives)
vel0city 2y ago
> trirail frequency increases can be done overnight Increasing the frequency can't necessarily be done overnight, unless they actually have the spare rolling stock just sitting around along with all the workers needed to operate and maintain the increased usage and the spare budget to cover the increased operations costs. Otherwise, they need to find the money to procure the rolling stock, actually place the order, wait for the rolling stock to be built/delivered, hire the people to operate and maintain it, etc.
- bedobi 2y ago
  yeah, all of which can be done overnight
  - vel0city 2y ago
    You can get expansions in funding approved, solicit bids from multiple firms to make the trains, analyze and approve the bid, get a factory to make potentially several to dozens more trains, ship them across the country (or potentially internationally), hire and train a lot of workers, in less than 24 hours?
    - bedobi 2y ago
      you're just being obtuse in the realm of infrastructure investment, all of that is overnight vs eg the yet another additional bridge to nowhere they're currently building that is taking decades and costing billions but tell you and every other frothing at the mouth motorist what, enjoy sitting in traffic
      - vel0city 2y ago
        > but tell you and every other frothing at the mouth motorist what, enjoy sitting in traffic You're being quite rude here about this for no reason and projecting an identity on me that's not warranted. I'm generally pro public transit, but I'm also a realist and not suggesting it takes practically zero time to procure additional rolling stock and hire a lot more people. A lot of people think having a higher level of service is just run the trains/busses more, but chances are they're already running all the stuff they currently have the capacity to own and operate. It's not like most transit orgs have double the current capacity just sitting idle and nobody thought to run them. It took them three years after finding the funding and getting all the approvals and signing the contracts to add rolling stock last time. So probably more like four or five years at least to add some additional trains. And that was replacing existing trains, not expanding the fleet, so its not like they had to considerably expand their existing workforce. I imagine most people would consider four or five years not "overnight". The bus service near me is usually every 20 minutes. That's terrible. I'd absolutely love it to cut that in half. It also means it would cost significantly more to operate. Getting everyone to agree to pay that (a massive task at the start), getting all the proposals put together, soliciting bids, signing the contracts, getting the new busses, hiring the new drivers, and actually increasing the service isn't something that is going to happen in 2025. Probably also not 2026.

by bedobi 2y ago

onlyrealcuzzo 2y ago

> no it would save miami and the state and the federal government billions Have you ever looked at the local budget of a US transit authority? They typically lose $2+ per passenger trip, and get bailed out by the federal government. Mass transit is not going to save Miami any money for decades until ridership approaches Hong Kong levels. Unless you count passing on expenses to the Federal government as savings, and even then, it's still decades out.

kemotep 2y ago
With car usage on most roads free of charge at use and maintenance also footed largely by the Federal Government, it probably comes out cheaper long term to invest in rail. And every car off the toad makes driving more pleasant for everyone who stays.
bedobi 2y ago
lol the idea isn't to make money off transit, it's to save money on roads roads cost more than transit - a LOT more, and motorists aren't paying anywhere near the cost of road construction and maintenance, they're (quite literally) free-riding subsidized trips on the taxpayer traffic also destroys productivity, public health, life expectancy etc etc so costs money in many more ways than motorists not paying for them
- onlyrealcuzzo 2y ago
  > and motorists aren't paying anywhere near the cost of road construction and maintenance, they're (quite literally) free-riding subsidized trips on the taxpayer So are public transit riders. And to a worse degree. What's your point? We should magically spawn mass transit systems overnight and force everyone to ride them? By the way, I'm a fan of mass transit, and live somewhere in the US - specifically - where that's a viable option. It just isn't a viable option in ~80% of the US, and even if those areas start doing everything right to be mass transit viable (no indication of that), it still takes decades. Rome wasn't built in a day.
  - bedobi 2y ago
    > So are public transit riders. And to a worse degree. What's your point? that this is wildly incorrect. roads cost more than transit. a lot more. and road users are wildly more subsidized than transit users. > We should magically spawn mass transit systems overnight yes > and force everyone to ride them? you won't have to when the choice is between sitting hours in traffic vs a fraction of the time on efficient transit and greenways. people are not stupid. > It just isn't a viable option in ~80% of the US this is Miami, not middle of nowhere Iowa > Rome wasn't built in a day so it's correct of Miami to continue to "invest" in even more roads to nowhere, like yet another new highway bridge across the bay? that will take decades to complete and cost billions, and cause MORE traffic? like no lol just build the effing transit and greenways and traffic will go down and the government and people alike will save billions instead (and their time, and lives)

vel0city 2y ago

> trirail frequency increases can be done overnight Increasing the frequency can't necessarily be done overnight, unless they actually have the spare rolling stock just sitting around along with all the workers needed to operate and maintain the increased usage and the spare budget to cover the increased operations costs. Otherwise, they need to find the money to procure the rolling stock, actually place the order, wait for the rolling stock to be built/delivered, hire the people to operate and maintain it, etc.

bedobi 2y ago
yeah, all of which can be done overnight
- vel0city 2y ago
  You can get expansions in funding approved, solicit bids from multiple firms to make the trains, analyze and approve the bid, get a factory to make potentially several to dozens more trains, ship them across the country (or potentially internationally), hire and train a lot of workers, in less than 24 hours?
  - bedobi 2y ago
    you're just being obtuse in the realm of infrastructure investment, all of that is overnight vs eg the yet another additional bridge to nowhere they're currently building that is taking decades and costing billions but tell you and every other frothing at the mouth motorist what, enjoy sitting in traffic
    - vel0city 2y ago
      > but tell you and every other frothing at the mouth motorist what, enjoy sitting in traffic You're being quite rude here about this for no reason and projecting an identity on me that's not warranted. I'm generally pro public transit, but I'm also a realist and not suggesting it takes practically zero time to procure additional rolling stock and hire a lot more people. A lot of people think having a higher level of service is just run the trains/busses more, but chances are they're already running all the stuff they currently have the capacity to own and operate. It's not like most transit orgs have double the current capacity just sitting idle and nobody thought to run them. It took them three years after finding the funding and getting all the approvals and signing the contracts to add rolling stock last time. So probably more like four or five years at least to add some additional trains. And that was replacing existing trains, not expanding the fleet, so its not like they had to considerably expand their existing workforce. I imagine most people would consider four or five years not "overnight". The bus service near me is usually every 20 minutes. That's terrible. I'd absolutely love it to cut that in half. It also means it would cost significantly more to operate. Getting everyone to agree to pay that (a massive task at the start), getting all the proposals put together, soliciting bids, signing the contracts, getting the new busses, hiring the new drivers, and actually increasing the service isn't something that is going to happen in 2025. Probably also not 2026.