4 ms·

So unfortunate that justified text in browsers looks awful compared to documents generated with LaTeX (usually)....

by vextea 2y ago

WillAdams 2y ago
For want of a "real" H&J algorithm, and having problematic lines identified as "overfull boxes" which need to be fixed.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
xigoi 2y ago
Try to make a LaTeX document that automatically reflows based on screen size and you’ll see why it’s difficult.
- fooker 2y ago
  That is not what a latex document is for. It's like talking about reflowing a physical page. Instead, you change the document page size and render multiple versions and switch it out based on zoom level.
  - xigoi 2y ago
    That’s the point. HTML has to support arbitrary screen sizes whereas LaTeX doesn’t, so the layout algorithms have to be more accomodating.
    - eddd-ddde 2y ago
      But the width of a PDF is still arbitrary isn't it? Can you just, recalculate for bigger widths?
      - MrVandemar 2y ago
        Not really. It's fixed at "compile time". Eg "A4" or "Letter". I guess it "changes" according to zoom level, but that's just enlarging or shrinking - no reflow required.
        Bootvis 2y ago
        You could apply the LaTeX algorithm to each rendering. The rendering might jump and it would be a change from before but it can be done.
        esperent 2y ago
        How long does a fast latex renderer take on a large document? It's been a few years since I worked with latex, but it's on the order of multiple seconds, right?
        setopt 2y ago
        For a book, it can take minutes. For a short document, seconds. Texpresso looks promising though, but I haven’t tried it yet.
        chrismorgan 2y ago
        The Knuth-Plass line-breaking algorithm is applied per paragraph; performance is typically not going to be an issue at all. If you apply it to all paragraphs, yes, you will get pathological performance on some extreme cases—the algorithm is quadratic, if I recall correctly. But there’s nothing preventing you from trying to apply it in general, and giving up if the input is too long. So your five or ten line paragraphs get KP, and longer paragraphs get greedy. There is absolutely nothing stopping browsers from applying Knuth-Plass. In fact, Firefox has had a bug about implementing it for 14 years <https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=630181 https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=630181>, and there’s some useful discussion of things there. And CSS itself is finally actually going ahead with `text-wrap: pretty`, which encourages such things. Long ago, IE apparently even had it via `text-justify: newspaper` <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5189258 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5189258>.
- WillAdams 2y ago
  A good example of this is Bertrand Russell's _Introduction to Mathematical Philosophy_: https://courses.umass.edu/klement/imp/ https://courses.umass.edu/klement/imp/ which is available in a number of sizes _and_ has the LaTeX source available showing how the various sizes are arrived at.
  - xigoi 2y ago
    It’s still just a few different sizes. A HTML website has to support every possible width.
    - WillAdams 2y ago
      The LaTeX source may be easily edited to impart any size/proportion desired --- not quite as straight-forward as re-sizing a browser window, but the same ultimate effect.
  - jxy 2y ago
    The HTML version is quite nice. Do you know how they did the LaTeX to html conversion?
    - WillAdams 2y ago
      No idea. Ask the folks who manage that page?
tdjsnelling 2y ago
I had a crack at a solution to this problem recently. It's pretty basic in terms of what it can do and not the most performant. Code: https://github.com/tdjsnelling/microtype https://github.com/tdjsnelling/microtype Demo: https://tdjsnelling.github.io/microtype/test/from-cdn/ https://tdjsnelling.github.io/microtype/test/from-cdn/ Even better, there is the new CSS `hyphens: auto;`. Browser & language support is not yet 100% though. https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/CSS/hyphens https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/CSS/hyphens
madphilosopher 2y ago
All the print books on my bookshelf use fully justified text. In contrast, my preference for ebooks are to render them as left-justified. So I think I intuitively arrived at a practice that matches your conclusion about justified text in browsers.

So unfortunate that justified text in browsers looks awful compared to documents generated with LaTeX (usually)....

by vextea 2y ago

So unfortunate that justified text in browsers looks awful compared to documents generated with LaTeX (usually)....

WillAdams 2y ago

For want of a "real" H&J algorithm, and having problematic lines identified as "overfull boxes" which need to be fixed.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

xigoi 2y ago

Try to make a LaTeX document that automatically reflows based on screen size and you’ll see why it’s difficult.

fooker 2y ago
That is not what a latex document is for. It's like talking about reflowing a physical page. Instead, you change the document page size and render multiple versions and switch it out based on zoom level.
- xigoi 2y ago
  That’s the point. HTML has to support arbitrary screen sizes whereas LaTeX doesn’t, so the layout algorithms have to be more accomodating.
  - eddd-ddde 2y ago
    But the width of a PDF is still arbitrary isn't it? Can you just, recalculate for bigger widths?
    - MrVandemar 2y ago
      Not really. It's fixed at "compile time". Eg "A4" or "Letter". I guess it "changes" according to zoom level, but that's just enlarging or shrinking - no reflow required.
      - Bootvis 2y ago
        You could apply the LaTeX algorithm to each rendering. The rendering might jump and it would be a change from before but it can be done.
        esperent 2y ago
        How long does a fast latex renderer take on a large document? It's been a few years since I worked with latex, but it's on the order of multiple seconds, right?
        setopt 2y ago
        For a book, it can take minutes. For a short document, seconds. Texpresso looks promising though, but I haven’t tried it yet.
        chrismorgan 2y ago
        The Knuth-Plass line-breaking algorithm is applied per paragraph; performance is typically not going to be an issue at all. If you apply it to all paragraphs, yes, you will get pathological performance on some extreme cases—the algorithm is quadratic, if I recall correctly. But there’s nothing preventing you from trying to apply it in general, and giving up if the input is too long. So your five or ten line paragraphs get KP, and longer paragraphs get greedy. There is absolutely nothing stopping browsers from applying Knuth-Plass. In fact, Firefox has had a bug about implementing it for 14 years <https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=630181 https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=630181>, and there’s some useful discussion of things there. And CSS itself is finally actually going ahead with `text-wrap: pretty`, which encourages such things. Long ago, IE apparently even had it via `text-justify: newspaper` <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5189258 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5189258>.
WillAdams 2y ago
A good example of this is Bertrand Russell's _Introduction to Mathematical Philosophy_: https://courses.umass.edu/klement/imp/ https://courses.umass.edu/klement/imp/ which is available in a number of sizes _and_ has the LaTeX source available showing how the various sizes are arrived at.
- xigoi 2y ago
  It’s still just a few different sizes. A HTML website has to support every possible width.
  - WillAdams 2y ago
    The LaTeX source may be easily edited to impart any size/proportion desired --- not quite as straight-forward as re-sizing a browser window, but the same ultimate effect.
- jxy 2y ago
  The HTML version is quite nice. Do you know how they did the LaTeX to html conversion?
  - WillAdams 2y ago
    No idea. Ask the folks who manage that page?

tdjsnelling 2y ago

I had a crack at a solution to this problem recently. It's pretty basic in terms of what it can do and not the most performant. Code: https://github.com/tdjsnelling/microtype https://github.com/tdjsnelling/microtype Demo: https://tdjsnelling.github.io/microtype/test/from-cdn/ https://tdjsnelling.github.io/microtype/test/from-cdn/ Even better, there is the new CSS `hyphens: auto;`. Browser & language support is not yet 100% though. https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/CSS/hyphens https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/CSS/hyphens

madphilosopher 2y ago

All the print books on my bookshelf use fully justified text. In contrast, my preference for ebooks are to render them as left-justified. So I think I intuitively arrived at a practice that matches your conclusion about justified text in browsers.