7 ms·

Making Online Notarization Legal

15 points by caseya 14y ago

mchusma 14y ago
I'm excited to see online notarization occur. Traditional, pen-and-ink notaries really shouldn't exist in today's age.
lesterbuck 14y ago
I was disturbed to see that pg killed an earlier thread on this company, on a rather flimsy basis. The financial industry is obviously ripe for disruption, but if those being disrupted can kick up enough dust to have HN erase all memory of a new idea, we have a bigger problem.
- tzs 14y ago
  It was not a flimsy basis. The site was specifically claiming online notarization was legal in all states, if I recall correctly[1]. It is NOT legal in California. They now appear to have modified their claims. As far as I can see, they only say online signing is legal, not online notarization. [1] The Internet Archive has not crawled them since 2009, when the domain appears to have been used for something completely different, so I can't check to be sure exactly what they said and what has changed.
  - aisalwaysa 14y ago
    You're not understanding the facts, online notarization IS legal in California... the notaries themselves can't be in California, but the signers can. Signers can notarize from anywhere in the world, including California, since the notaries follow Virginia law. It's like how lenders and credit companies often use Utah law (but can lend elsewhere) or corporations incorporate in Delaware.
    - rprasad 14y ago
      No, online notarization is not legal anywhere in the world, except Virgnia. This is not at all similar to how lenders can use Utah law but incorporate in Delaware. Choice of legal forum is a contractual issue between private parties. Notorization is a legal issue involving the government. Notaries act as government agents when they notarize, so each legal jurisdiction gets to set the standards for legal notarization within their jurisdiction. States are not required to honor notarizations performed in another state under the Full Faith and Credit Clause because notarization is not considered a "public act" but most states will accept notarizations from other states if the standards in the other state are the same or stricter than the first state. Hence, while signers can notarize from anywhere in the world using SignNow, they can't use this notarization for anything except for transactions governed by Virginia law and subject to the jurisdiction of Virginia courts. This makes the service effectively useless for anyone who does not live in Virginia, since other state courts do not have to accept the notarization.
      - mchusma 14y ago
        The National Association of Secretaries of State disagree with you, including in the following public report "Issues and Trends in State Notary Regulation: NASS Report on State Notarization Policies and Practice" found here: http://www.nass.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=226&Itemid=469 http://www.nass.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=ar... Key Quotes Regarding electronic notarization: “New state and federal laws, such as the 2000 Electronic Signatures in Global and National Commerce Act (E-SIGN), authorize every state-commissioned notary in the nation to use electronic signatures in performing official acts.” Regarding Out Of State Acceptance “State laws...already recognize the validity of out-of-state notarizations, the state and federal evidence rules that recognize notarial acts as self-authenticating, and the Full Faith and Credit Clause of the U.S. Constitution.” States would have to pass legislation against online notarization to prevent its acceptance. Several states have put out warnings, including the state of California. This notice was published prior to the legal change and has apparently not been reviewed by state counsel. We have received clarification, consistent with all communication from other states, that they are only concerned with online notarization conducted by their notaries.
    - tzs 14y ago
      The California Secretary of State says: "California law requires a person to appear personally before a notary public to obtain notarial acts like acknowledgments or jurats".
      - aisalwaysa 14y ago
        Yes, if you are a CALIFORNIA NOTARY than you must follow their requirements. NOT if you are a Virginia Notary, then you follow Virginia Law, and your clients, wherever they are in the world, adhere to your Virginia requirements.
        tzs 14y ago
        There have been many cases of state courts rejecting out of state notarizations that did not comply with the requirements of the state in which the court sits. There was a bill a few years ago in Congress that tried to make it so that states would have to honor out of state notarizations, but this bill was vetoed. Until such a bill is signed into law, or either the 9th Circuit or the Supreme Court rules that states must accept out of state notarizations that do not meet the in-state notary requirements, then any notarization in which you are not present is questionable in California.
      - deleted 14y ago
        [deleted]
  - lesterbuck 14y ago
    The exact legal details of is so/is not is hardly to be decided on Hacker News. I am disturbed that one side gets its opinion heard and -- poof! -- down the memory hole that topic goes. It's really just a small version of SOPA in our community. PayPal, when it launched, was illegal in all fifty states. Would Hacker News have suppressed discussions of PayPal's business model?
    - mchusma 14y ago
      Good point. Virginia certainly seems to think that it is legal for notaries to notarize across state lines. Perhaps CA disagrees, but they have never really stated as such.
  - mchusma 14y ago
    You are not recalling correctly, never stated it was legal for notaries in all states.
bradleyland 14y ago
That was a great read. Some of the author's enthusiasm comes across a bit campy at points, but in general, they seem justified in casting themselves as pariahs. The whole scenario is a collission of off-color concerns. On one hand, you have notaries and the notary establishment (yeah, I made that up) fighting to save their place in the market. Then you have lawmakers who see it, fail to understand it, and are then lobbied by the aforementioned establishment. Then you've got consumers like PG who are (rightfully) on edge about the legality and scam-factor associated with the idea. Everyone is watching this out of the corner of their eye, defaulting to the position that something is fishy. Notarization is something business people are trained to treat with some reverence. The entire concept of a signature as an agent of identification is a bit bizzare when you think about it. Your signature is not a secret, but it remains a critical security element. Notarization is a hack. It's another layer of the same thing varnishing over the whole "signature means agreement" show. Yet it's so simple, and so engrained in our way of conducting business that any attempt to change it freaks everyone out. Fascinating.
rprasad 14y ago
I flagged this before and I am going to flag this again: this service is not legal in any state except Virginia and will not satisfy the in-person verification requirements of any state (except Virginia, which does not require in-person verification of identity). This does not mean the service is illegal; it simply means that this service cannot be used for any legal purposes in any state or federal jurisdiction (except Virginia). There is a reason this service is not, nor will it ever be disruptive--it does not address the core underpinnings of the notary system: verification of documents and identities. Online identify verification using inaccurate third party verification databases is not sufficient to prove identity for any purposes. Holding up a document or id card to a webcam does not allow for sufficient examination by the notary of the document or card showed to prove that the document or id card is what it is alleged to be. Indeed, this system would actually aggravate the notarization scam problem it claims to address. Going digital does not solve every problem. Most people at HN may not realize this, but there are a lot of situations where things cannot be done through a computer.
- aisalwaysa 14y ago
  You are factually incorrect, and you are a big part of the problem here. If you are a signer, you can go online now to signnow.com, sitting at Paul Graham's desk IN CALIFORNIA and legally notarize your document. It will be legally notarized by a Virginia Notary, and your notarization is 100% legal everywhere in the US. "The service is not legal in any state except Virginia" just means the NOTARIES must be sitting in Virginia, again, the clients can be anywhere. Interstate commerce, and the National Association of Secretaries of State have proven support for accepting other state's notarizations. Regarding identification, you should read the law, and try signnow's service since it does NOT rely on holding up an ID card for identity. The law requires, and signnow uses, out of wallet verification questions from a third party provider to verify identity. Anything else done is above and beyond the law, and is FAR ABOVE what currently occurs with the inconsistency of pen and paper notarizations.
- mchusma 14y ago
  Perhaps you don't understant how bad the existing notary system is. In many states you don't need to keep even a record of the notarization (in a journal). Video evidence, multi-factor authentication, and other tools are all vastly superior.
terryk88a 14y ago
I'm really excited to see this concept made real. Based on comments here, multi-factor (non-wallet) authentication is used to identify the parties. This method of ID verification is a technique that I helped pioneer at Equifax many years ago, and I've been disappointed that it hasn't ever really seemed to take off before. I occasionally see it in use here and there, but now really expect it to be recognized for its value. Not perfect for every case, but a useful tool nonetheless. Cheers and way to go!

15 points by caseya 14y ago

I'm excited to see online notarization occur. Traditional, pen-and-ink notaries really shouldn't exist in today's age.

I was disturbed to see that pg killed an earlier thread on this company, on a rather flimsy basis. The financial industry is obviously ripe for disruption, but if those being disrupted can kick up enough dust to have HN erase all memory of a new idea, we have a bigger problem.

tzs 14y ago
It was not a flimsy basis. The site was specifically claiming online notarization was legal in all states, if I recall correctly[1]. It is NOT legal in California. They now appear to have modified their claims. As far as I can see, they only say online signing is legal, not online notarization. [1] The Internet Archive has not crawled them since 2009, when the domain appears to have been used for something completely different, so I can't check to be sure exactly what they said and what has changed.
- aisalwaysa 14y ago
  You're not understanding the facts, online notarization IS legal in California... the notaries themselves can't be in California, but the signers can. Signers can notarize from anywhere in the world, including California, since the notaries follow Virginia law. It's like how lenders and credit companies often use Utah law (but can lend elsewhere) or corporations incorporate in Delaware.
  - rprasad 14y ago
    No, online notarization is not legal anywhere in the world, except Virgnia. This is not at all similar to how lenders can use Utah law but incorporate in Delaware. Choice of legal forum is a contractual issue between private parties. Notorization is a legal issue involving the government. Notaries act as government agents when they notarize, so each legal jurisdiction gets to set the standards for legal notarization within their jurisdiction. States are not required to honor notarizations performed in another state under the Full Faith and Credit Clause because notarization is not considered a "public act" but most states will accept notarizations from other states if the standards in the other state are the same or stricter than the first state. Hence, while signers can notarize from anywhere in the world using SignNow, they can't use this notarization for anything except for transactions governed by Virginia law and subject to the jurisdiction of Virginia courts. This makes the service effectively useless for anyone who does not live in Virginia, since other state courts do not have to accept the notarization.
    - mchusma 14y ago
      The National Association of Secretaries of State disagree with you, including in the following public report "Issues and Trends in State Notary Regulation: NASS Report on State Notarization Policies and Practice" found here: http://www.nass.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=226&Itemid=469 http://www.nass.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=ar... Key Quotes Regarding electronic notarization: “New state and federal laws, such as the 2000 Electronic Signatures in Global and National Commerce Act (E-SIGN), authorize every state-commissioned notary in the nation to use electronic signatures in performing official acts.” Regarding Out Of State Acceptance “State laws...already recognize the validity of out-of-state notarizations, the state and federal evidence rules that recognize notarial acts as self-authenticating, and the Full Faith and Credit Clause of the U.S. Constitution.” States would have to pass legislation against online notarization to prevent its acceptance. Several states have put out warnings, including the state of California. This notice was published prior to the legal change and has apparently not been reviewed by state counsel. We have received clarification, consistent with all communication from other states, that they are only concerned with online notarization conducted by their notaries.
  - tzs 14y ago
    The California Secretary of State says: "California law requires a person to appear personally before a notary public to obtain notarial acts like acknowledgments or jurats".
    - aisalwaysa 14y ago
      Yes, if you are a CALIFORNIA NOTARY than you must follow their requirements. NOT if you are a Virginia Notary, then you follow Virginia Law, and your clients, wherever they are in the world, adhere to your Virginia requirements.
      - tzs 14y ago
        There have been many cases of state courts rejecting out of state notarizations that did not comply with the requirements of the state in which the court sits. There was a bill a few years ago in Congress that tried to make it so that states would have to honor out of state notarizations, but this bill was vetoed. Until such a bill is signed into law, or either the 9th Circuit or the Supreme Court rules that states must accept out of state notarizations that do not meet the in-state notary requirements, then any notarization in which you are not present is questionable in California.
    - deleted 14y ago
      [deleted]
- lesterbuck 14y ago
  The exact legal details of is so/is not is hardly to be decided on Hacker News. I am disturbed that one side gets its opinion heard and -- poof! -- down the memory hole that topic goes. It's really just a small version of SOPA in our community. PayPal, when it launched, was illegal in all fifty states. Would Hacker News have suppressed discussions of PayPal's business model?
  - mchusma 14y ago
    Good point. Virginia certainly seems to think that it is legal for notaries to notarize across state lines. Perhaps CA disagrees, but they have never really stated as such.
- mchusma 14y ago
  You are not recalling correctly, never stated it was legal for notaries in all states.

bradleyland 14y ago

That was a great read. Some of the author's enthusiasm comes across a bit campy at points, but in general, they seem justified in casting themselves as pariahs. The whole scenario is a collission of off-color concerns. On one hand, you have notaries and the notary establishment (yeah, I made that up) fighting to save their place in the market. Then you have lawmakers who see it, fail to understand it, and are then lobbied by the aforementioned establishment. Then you've got consumers like PG who are (rightfully) on edge about the legality and scam-factor associated with the idea. Everyone is watching this out of the corner of their eye, defaulting to the position that something is fishy. Notarization is something business people are trained to treat with some reverence. The entire concept of a signature as an agent of identification is a bit bizzare when you think about it. Your signature is not a secret, but it remains a critical security element. Notarization is a hack. It's another layer of the same thing varnishing over the whole "signature means agreement" show. Yet it's so simple, and so engrained in our way of conducting business that any attempt to change it freaks everyone out. Fascinating.

rprasad 14y ago

I flagged this before and I am going to flag this again: this service is not legal in any state except Virginia and will not satisfy the in-person verification requirements of any state (except Virginia, which does not require in-person verification of identity). This does not mean the service is illegal; it simply means that this service cannot be used for any legal purposes in any state or federal jurisdiction (except Virginia). There is a reason this service is not, nor will it ever be disruptive--it does not address the core underpinnings of the notary system: verification of documents and identities. Online identify verification using inaccurate third party verification databases is not sufficient to prove identity for any purposes. Holding up a document or id card to a webcam does not allow for sufficient examination by the notary of the document or card showed to prove that the document or id card is what it is alleged to be. Indeed, this system would actually aggravate the notarization scam problem it claims to address. Going digital does not solve every problem. Most people at HN may not realize this, but there are a lot of situations where things cannot be done through a computer.

aisalwaysa 14y ago
You are factually incorrect, and you are a big part of the problem here. If you are a signer, you can go online now to signnow.com, sitting at Paul Graham's desk IN CALIFORNIA and legally notarize your document. It will be legally notarized by a Virginia Notary, and your notarization is 100% legal everywhere in the US. "The service is not legal in any state except Virginia" just means the NOTARIES must be sitting in Virginia, again, the clients can be anywhere. Interstate commerce, and the National Association of Secretaries of State have proven support for accepting other state's notarizations. Regarding identification, you should read the law, and try signnow's service since it does NOT rely on holding up an ID card for identity. The law requires, and signnow uses, out of wallet verification questions from a third party provider to verify identity. Anything else done is above and beyond the law, and is FAR ABOVE what currently occurs with the inconsistency of pen and paper notarizations.
mchusma 14y ago
Perhaps you don't understant how bad the existing notary system is. In many states you don't need to keep even a record of the notarization (in a journal). Video evidence, multi-factor authentication, and other tools are all vastly superior.

terryk88a 14y ago

I'm really excited to see this concept made real. Based on comments here, multi-factor (non-wallet) authentication is used to identify the parties. This method of ID verification is a technique that I helped pioneer at Equifax many years ago, and I've been disappointed that it hasn't ever really seemed to take off before. I occasionally see it in use here and there, but now really expect it to be recognized for its value. Not perfect for every case, but a useful tool nonetheless. Cheers and way to go!