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How can I get my Nissan Leaf to read this paper? Its range has dropped to 50% of new and a refurbished replacement pack cost 150% the value of the car, which is

How can I get my Nissan Leaf to read this paper? Its range has dropped to 50% of new and a refurbished replacement pack cost 150% the value of the car, which is in otherwise excellent condition. It has only 70k miles.

verisimi 2y ago
> a refurbished replacement pack cost 150% the value of the car When I researched evs, I couldn't make the economics make sense. 7 years for a car lifetime seems outrageous.
- Tagbert 2y ago
  Where do you get 7 years? That is not true of most EV. Even the worst ones, like the early Leafs did better than that.
  - verisimi 2y ago
    The 7 years thing is from the idea I have heard that after around 7 years the functional life of the battery is effectively over. > The Li-ion battery typically has a lifespan of 300-500 charge cycles. Suppose a fully discharged lithium-ion battery provides 1Q of charge, and not considering the decrease in charge with each charge, the lithium-ion battery can provide or replenish a total of 300Q-500Q of charge over its lifetime. It can be seen that if charged to 1/2 each time, it can be recharged 600-1000 times; if recharged to 1/3 each time, it can be recharged 900-1500 times. And so on and so forth, with an indeterminate number of charges if they are randomized. In any case, no matter how you charge, the total amount of energy replenished remains constant at 300Q-500Q. https://cmbatteries.com/comprehensive-understanding-of-lithium-ion-battery-life-cycle/ https://cmbatteries.com/comprehensive-understanding-of-lithi...
    - Tagbert 2y ago
      Except there are thousands of EVs out there older than 7 years old that have no problem with their batteries. The whole point of this article is that batteries are lasting much longer than the earlier assumption suggested. Your assumption of 300-500 charge cycles is an example of that. Actual charge cycles are 3-5 times greater. Aside from some problems with early chemistries like the Nissan Leaf battery, battery life is not a problem for long lasting EVs.
- vel0city 2y ago
  The economics of that seems solid to me. If the battery is bad in year 7 it's replaced under warranty.
pcdoodle 2y ago
Since the Leaf has a smaller battery, it get's more wear and tear per trip.
- Astronaut3315 2y ago
  It also lacks active thermal management. That's more or less a requirement for long battery life.
  - cowmix 2y ago
    THIS. The ARIYA is the first EV they've widely released (last year) with any active thermal management. I live in AZ, and all my friends with Leaf's all have had to have their batteries replaced at least once. All my Chevy based EV/PHEVs have had great battery life (so far) - knock on wood.
    - davedunkin 2y ago
      I'm also in AZ. What's surprising to me is I get slightly better range in the summer months.
  - _yb2s 2y ago
    Probably depends on the climate and use case… early EVs with no thermal management seems to last forever in coastal areas with mild climates, and slow heavy traffic
- BonoboIO 2y ago
  I think this is the answer. That is also a problem for hybrid powers vehicles, the battery is small and it gets charged and discharged 0-100 / 100-0 very often, if you use the hybrid as intended. Some manufacturers limit this, but in a few years we will see a lot of hybrids that have batteries that barely work and will not deliver the expected ev only distance by a lot.
  - teamonkey 2y ago
    A lot of Toyota hybrids (but I believe not PHEVs) use NiMH batteries, which are longer lasting than the Li-ion batteries used in EVs and can withstand more charge cycles.
bdangubic 2y ago
what is fascinating about your comment to me is thag the value of your car has dropped precisely because people fear battery issues. my friend had a 2015 Tesla S in pristine condition, just a ridiculous car. replaced the battery so now we have 50k miles new battery like-new Tesla S that he could not sell for more than $30k. wild stuff… even though most people don’t do it, on more expensive cars it actually makes serious financial sense to replace the battery but on cheaper cars it does not!
- aprilthird2021 2y ago
  Your friend's Tesla did not drop in resale value because of the battery. If anything a new battery would make those who fear battery degradation more willing to buy this used car. It dropped because Teslas in general have a high maintenance cost associated and a high insurance cost (because insurers also see it as costly to maintain). High maintenance cost tends to sink a car's resale value. I know the car does not need oil changes or have the possibility of various failure modes an ICE car has, but when it does have an issue, like a dent or a scrape, etc. the cost to repair is much higher.
  - cobri 2y ago
    As of 11/13/2024, Consumer Reports rates Tesla as the lowest maintenance and repair costs over the first 10 years of ownership, not factoring in insurance or collision repair. https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/car-maintenance/the-cost-of-car-ownership-a1854979198/ https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/car-maintenance/the-cos...
    - thejazzman 2y ago
      They didn't ask me about my $15k battery replacement that occurred the day after my warranty expired Doesn't much matter how good the cells are when the wires in the pack just magically corrode
      - bdangubic 2y ago
        outliers always exist, you were dealt bad hands. I think also if you pushed hard you could have gotten this covered, just needs a whole lot of yelling and if that doesn’t work going social and trying to get some publicity behind it, especially if it was 1 DAY after warranty expired. I personally thinks it makes financial sense to get extended warranty for things like this, $15k used to be a price of a new car, getting a warranty to cover that past Tesla’s warranty I think makes financial sense. My wife recently bought pre-owned eTron and I made her get extended warranty after doing research online about maintenance costs on them
dzhiurgis 2y ago
Nissan probably did more damage to EV image than good. Even then it's NZs most popular used EV.
hedora 2y ago
Leafs don’t have active battery management. As far as I know, they’re basically the only widely available EV in the US with this problem. Just replace the car, as much as that sucks.
- rasz 2y ago
  Apparently Honda IMA (NiMH) 1 and 2nd gen not only lacks active thermal management, it also doesnt have any BALANCE management!?!?! 2006-2011 Honda Civic IMA battery repair WITHOUT buying new cells https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGfQchiLtG8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGfQchiLtG8 Its almost like Japanese do it on purpose to push BS Hydrogen.
  - Tostino 2y ago
    Their hydrogen obsession has set the world back decades.
    - rswskg 2y ago
      How?
      - Tostino 2y ago
        The promotion of hydrogen vehicles by automakers, particularly in the late 1990s and early 2000s, served as an effective delay tactic that slowed the transition away from internal combustion engines. Major oil companies like Shell and BP made splashy announcements about hydrogen investments and fueling infrastructure, yet these remained largely symbolic. Shell's "Hydrogen Network" consisted of just a handful of stations even years after announcements. Meanwhile, automakers like GM heavily promoted hydrogen initiatives like Project Driveway, generating positive PR while maintaining their core ICE business. These companies knew that the fundamental challenges of hydrogen, including its energy intensive production, lack of infrastructure, and extremely high cost of fuel cells, made it impractical in the near term. Yet they used hydrogen's theoretical promise to argue against investing in more immediately viable technologies like battery electric vehicles. This created a "vaporware" effect: the industry could claim to be pursuing clean alternatives while avoiding meaningful investment in technologies that could have disrupted their existing business model. The resources and attention diverted to hydrogen could have accelerated battery development and charging infrastructure years earlier. By the time automakers finally embraced EVs in earnest in the late 2010s, they had effectively delayed the transition by 20 years.

verisimi 2y ago

> a refurbished replacement pack cost 150% the value of the car When I researched evs, I couldn't make the economics make sense. 7 years for a car lifetime seems outrageous.

Tagbert 2y ago
Where do you get 7 years? That is not true of most EV. Even the worst ones, like the early Leafs did better than that.
- verisimi 2y ago
  The 7 years thing is from the idea I have heard that after around 7 years the functional life of the battery is effectively over. > The Li-ion battery typically has a lifespan of 300-500 charge cycles. Suppose a fully discharged lithium-ion battery provides 1Q of charge, and not considering the decrease in charge with each charge, the lithium-ion battery can provide or replenish a total of 300Q-500Q of charge over its lifetime. It can be seen that if charged to 1/2 each time, it can be recharged 600-1000 times; if recharged to 1/3 each time, it can be recharged 900-1500 times. And so on and so forth, with an indeterminate number of charges if they are randomized. In any case, no matter how you charge, the total amount of energy replenished remains constant at 300Q-500Q. https://cmbatteries.com/comprehensive-understanding-of-lithium-ion-battery-life-cycle/ https://cmbatteries.com/comprehensive-understanding-of-lithi...
  - Tagbert 2y ago
    Except there are thousands of EVs out there older than 7 years old that have no problem with their batteries. The whole point of this article is that batteries are lasting much longer than the earlier assumption suggested. Your assumption of 300-500 charge cycles is an example of that. Actual charge cycles are 3-5 times greater. Aside from some problems with early chemistries like the Nissan Leaf battery, battery life is not a problem for long lasting EVs.
vel0city 2y ago
The economics of that seems solid to me. If the battery is bad in year 7 it's replaced under warranty.

pcdoodle 2y ago

Since the Leaf has a smaller battery, it get's more wear and tear per trip.

Astronaut3315 2y ago
It also lacks active thermal management. That's more or less a requirement for long battery life.
- cowmix 2y ago
  THIS. The ARIYA is the first EV they've widely released (last year) with any active thermal management. I live in AZ, and all my friends with Leaf's all have had to have their batteries replaced at least once. All my Chevy based EV/PHEVs have had great battery life (so far) - knock on wood.
  - davedunkin 2y ago
    I'm also in AZ. What's surprising to me is I get slightly better range in the summer months.
- _yb2s 2y ago
  Probably depends on the climate and use case… early EVs with no thermal management seems to last forever in coastal areas with mild climates, and slow heavy traffic
BonoboIO 2y ago
I think this is the answer. That is also a problem for hybrid powers vehicles, the battery is small and it gets charged and discharged 0-100 / 100-0 very often, if you use the hybrid as intended. Some manufacturers limit this, but in a few years we will see a lot of hybrids that have batteries that barely work and will not deliver the expected ev only distance by a lot.
- teamonkey 2y ago
  A lot of Toyota hybrids (but I believe not PHEVs) use NiMH batteries, which are longer lasting than the Li-ion batteries used in EVs and can withstand more charge cycles.

bdangubic 2y ago

what is fascinating about your comment to me is thag the value of your car has dropped precisely because people fear battery issues. my friend had a 2015 Tesla S in pristine condition, just a ridiculous car. replaced the battery so now we have 50k miles new battery like-new Tesla S that he could not sell for more than $30k. wild stuff… even though most people don’t do it, on more expensive cars it actually makes serious financial sense to replace the battery but on cheaper cars it does not!

aprilthird2021 2y ago
Your friend's Tesla did not drop in resale value because of the battery. If anything a new battery would make those who fear battery degradation more willing to buy this used car. It dropped because Teslas in general have a high maintenance cost associated and a high insurance cost (because insurers also see it as costly to maintain). High maintenance cost tends to sink a car's resale value. I know the car does not need oil changes or have the possibility of various failure modes an ICE car has, but when it does have an issue, like a dent or a scrape, etc. the cost to repair is much higher.
- cobri 2y ago
  As of 11/13/2024, Consumer Reports rates Tesla as the lowest maintenance and repair costs over the first 10 years of ownership, not factoring in insurance or collision repair. https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/car-maintenance/the-cost-of-car-ownership-a1854979198/ https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/car-maintenance/the-cos...
  - thejazzman 2y ago
    They didn't ask me about my $15k battery replacement that occurred the day after my warranty expired Doesn't much matter how good the cells are when the wires in the pack just magically corrode
    - bdangubic 2y ago
      outliers always exist, you were dealt bad hands. I think also if you pushed hard you could have gotten this covered, just needs a whole lot of yelling and if that doesn’t work going social and trying to get some publicity behind it, especially if it was 1 DAY after warranty expired. I personally thinks it makes financial sense to get extended warranty for things like this, $15k used to be a price of a new car, getting a warranty to cover that past Tesla’s warranty I think makes financial sense. My wife recently bought pre-owned eTron and I made her get extended warranty after doing research online about maintenance costs on them

dzhiurgis 2y ago

Nissan probably did more damage to EV image than good. Even then it's NZs most popular used EV.

hedora 2y ago

Leafs don’t have active battery management. As far as I know, they’re basically the only widely available EV in the US with this problem. Just replace the car, as much as that sucks.

rasz 2y ago
Apparently Honda IMA (NiMH) 1 and 2nd gen not only lacks active thermal management, it also doesnt have any BALANCE management!?!?! 2006-2011 Honda Civic IMA battery repair WITHOUT buying new cells https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGfQchiLtG8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGfQchiLtG8 Its almost like Japanese do it on purpose to push BS Hydrogen.
- Tostino 2y ago
  Their hydrogen obsession has set the world back decades.
  - rswskg 2y ago
    How?
    - Tostino 2y ago
      The promotion of hydrogen vehicles by automakers, particularly in the late 1990s and early 2000s, served as an effective delay tactic that slowed the transition away from internal combustion engines. Major oil companies like Shell and BP made splashy announcements about hydrogen investments and fueling infrastructure, yet these remained largely symbolic. Shell's "Hydrogen Network" consisted of just a handful of stations even years after announcements. Meanwhile, automakers like GM heavily promoted hydrogen initiatives like Project Driveway, generating positive PR while maintaining their core ICE business. These companies knew that the fundamental challenges of hydrogen, including its energy intensive production, lack of infrastructure, and extremely high cost of fuel cells, made it impractical in the near term. Yet they used hydrogen's theoretical promise to argue against investing in more immediately viable technologies like battery electric vehicles. This created a "vaporware" effect: the industry could claim to be pursuing clean alternatives while avoiding meaningful investment in technologies that could have disrupted their existing business model. The resources and attention diverted to hydrogen could have accelerated battery development and charging infrastructure years earlier. By the time automakers finally embraced EVs in earnest in the late 2010s, they had effectively delayed the transition by 20 years.