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Around the time the CoC was being established, Linus went to therapy. If I recall correctly, some people had spoke to him about his behaviors and he decided to

by uluyol 2y ago

Around the time the CoC was being established, Linus went to therapy. If I recall correctly, some people had spoke to him about his behaviors and he decided to do something about it. I think it was done in private so it's unclear how much of it was pressure vs his own decision. His tone has become much less aggressive since.

LtWorf 2y ago
He's been unpleasant also after he came back. Not as extreme maybe, but certainly not nice.
- johnisgood 2y ago
  He should get some tips from Theo. :D
- tredre3 2y ago
  Honesty is often unpleasant, especially when someone tells us that our work isn't good enough. But it is a required thing from a leader. The important thing is that he's cut down on needless personal insults.
  - LtWorf 2y ago
    But Linus isn't honest. I'm sure he thinks he is, but he's not always "objective". So while he thinks he's being honest, what he's saying can be untrue anyway. And of course he's Linus and you're a nobody so nobody will ever listen to the other side of the completely subjective "facts"
    - marcusb 2y ago
      Being honest doesn’t have anything to do with being objectively correct, unless a person is presenting their subjective feelings as objective fact. Saying to someone “your work is not good enough for me” is a subjective statement; whether or not it is honest depends on whether or not it is reflective of the speaker’s beliefs about the quality of the work. A leader not speaking up when they receive subpar work is dishonest, and it is fundamentally unfair to the person doing the work.
      - LtWorf 2y ago
        Well I can be completely honest and tell you that the earth is flat. Do you see now that being objective is also needed?
        marcusb 2y ago
        1) only if you truly believe the earth to be flat 2) the earth being a sphere is an objective fact that can be proven by multiple means. You would either be mistaken if you believed the earth to be flat, or a liar if you didn't. That also has absolutely nothing to do with your original claim -- that Linus has been "dishonest" because his opinions about technical matters discussed on LKML aren't objective. There is a fundamental difference between stating a fact ("the earth is a sphere") and an opinion ("this work is not up to my standards" or "I do not agree with your approach to solving this problem.") Note: being rude in expressing their opinions might make a person an asshole, but it does not make them "dishonest."
        LtWorf 2y ago
        > 2) the earth being a sphere is an objective fact that can be proven by multiple means. Thanks for telling me the point I was trying to make. It's very useful -_-' > There is a fundamental difference between stating a fact and an opinion There is, but often people mistake their own opinions for facts. I'm sure Linus knew perfectly it was an opinion and not a fact because when he spoke about the issue we were having at a conference he kinda glossed over the bits that would have made it at least doubtful he was correct. But of course people who hadn't read the mailing list and had no context had no choice but to believe he was absolutely right and forced to deal with very unreasonable people. Had he said the full story, nobody hearing him would have thought he was completely right.
        marcusb 2y ago
        I don't think there is any point in continuing this conversation. You originally posted that someone was being "dishonest" because he wasn't "objective." That is simply incorrect, in the same way that stating the earth is flat is incorrect. I wasn't party to whatever conversation you had with Linus, so I can't comment on your anecdote or if or how it relates to the argument(s) you are trying to make, other than to point out that nobody is 100% objective. That includes you. Have a nice day.
  - KennyBlanken 2y ago
    No, it is not a "required thing." Furthermore, a leader should set an example and be aware of how their stature keeps others from providing feedback to them about their behavior. For example, cops in many departments are taught to work at being exceptionally polite on the road, because they won't get the "you're being an asshole" feedback the rest of us do. Nobody's going to honk at them or curse them out for cutting them off. "This isn't good enough, your code is sloppy as shit" - you're being an asshole. "We have a coding standards and conventions round commenting and formatting. I encourage you to rework your patch with that in mind and re-submit it, because at least on cursory examination, your code looks solid." "Thank you for resubmitting. This is much more in line with what we prefer. Now we'll be able to take advantage of the work you've done to fix this problem."

by uluyol 2y ago

LtWorf 2y ago

He's been unpleasant also after he came back. Not as extreme maybe, but certainly not nice.

johnisgood 2y ago
He should get some tips from Theo. :D
tredre3 2y ago
Honesty is often unpleasant, especially when someone tells us that our work isn't good enough. But it is a required thing from a leader. The important thing is that he's cut down on needless personal insults.
- LtWorf 2y ago
  But Linus isn't honest. I'm sure he thinks he is, but he's not always "objective". So while he thinks he's being honest, what he's saying can be untrue anyway. And of course he's Linus and you're a nobody so nobody will ever listen to the other side of the completely subjective "facts"
  - marcusb 2y ago
    Being honest doesn’t have anything to do with being objectively correct, unless a person is presenting their subjective feelings as objective fact. Saying to someone “your work is not good enough for me” is a subjective statement; whether or not it is honest depends on whether or not it is reflective of the speaker’s beliefs about the quality of the work. A leader not speaking up when they receive subpar work is dishonest, and it is fundamentally unfair to the person doing the work.
    - LtWorf 2y ago
      Well I can be completely honest and tell you that the earth is flat. Do you see now that being objective is also needed?
      - marcusb 2y ago
        1) only if you truly believe the earth to be flat 2) the earth being a sphere is an objective fact that can be proven by multiple means. You would either be mistaken if you believed the earth to be flat, or a liar if you didn't. That also has absolutely nothing to do with your original claim -- that Linus has been "dishonest" because his opinions about technical matters discussed on LKML aren't objective. There is a fundamental difference between stating a fact ("the earth is a sphere") and an opinion ("this work is not up to my standards" or "I do not agree with your approach to solving this problem.") Note: being rude in expressing their opinions might make a person an asshole, but it does not make them "dishonest."
        LtWorf 2y ago
        > 2) the earth being a sphere is an objective fact that can be proven by multiple means. Thanks for telling me the point I was trying to make. It's very useful -_-' > There is a fundamental difference between stating a fact and an opinion There is, but often people mistake their own opinions for facts. I'm sure Linus knew perfectly it was an opinion and not a fact because when he spoke about the issue we were having at a conference he kinda glossed over the bits that would have made it at least doubtful he was correct. But of course people who hadn't read the mailing list and had no context had no choice but to believe he was absolutely right and forced to deal with very unreasonable people. Had he said the full story, nobody hearing him would have thought he was completely right.
        marcusb 2y ago
        I don't think there is any point in continuing this conversation. You originally posted that someone was being "dishonest" because he wasn't "objective." That is simply incorrect, in the same way that stating the earth is flat is incorrect. I wasn't party to whatever conversation you had with Linus, so I can't comment on your anecdote or if or how it relates to the argument(s) you are trying to make, other than to point out that nobody is 100% objective. That includes you. Have a nice day.
- KennyBlanken 2y ago
  No, it is not a "required thing." Furthermore, a leader should set an example and be aware of how their stature keeps others from providing feedback to them about their behavior. For example, cops in many departments are taught to work at being exceptionally polite on the road, because they won't get the "you're being an asshole" feedback the rest of us do. Nobody's going to honk at them or curse them out for cutting them off. "This isn't good enough, your code is sloppy as shit" - you're being an asshole. "We have a coding standards and conventions round commenting and formatting. I encourage you to rework your patch with that in mind and re-submit it, because at least on cursory examination, your code looks solid." "Thank you for resubmitting. This is much more in line with what we prefer. Now we'll be able to take advantage of the work you've done to fix this problem."