6 ms·

I read a fascinating article on this dam removal last week! https://hakaimagazine.com/features/the-other-side-of-the-worlds-largest-dam-removal/?utm_source=pock

by aesch 2y ago

I read a fascinating article on this dam removal last week! https://hakaimagazine.com/features/the-other-side-of-the-worlds-largest-dam-removal/?utm_source=pocket-newtab-en-us https://hakaimagazine.com/features/the-other-side-of-the-wor... The article tells both sides of the story of the dam removal in as fair a way as I think is possible. Many of the locals were against it and there was a strong advocacy group that fought for it, including a tribal constituency. I came away from the article feeling I understood both sides better but with less certainty about what was the right choice.

willsmith72 2y ago
People will believe and fight for literally anything, surely thousands of years of con men has taught us that. The fact that this guy with a whopping 4 generations in the area doesn't agree means next to nothing to me.
- s1artibartfast 2y ago
  The point isnt that some guy doesnt agree, it is the ideas and information they are communicating.
calibas 2y ago
A lot of the local opposition to dam removal is because of this guy specifically. Here's his article on why the toxic cyanobacteria that was in the former reservoirs is actually good for the river: https://www.siskiyou.news/2024/01/24/blue-green-algae-in-copco-and-iron-gate-lakes-behind-klamath-river-dams-natures-solution-for-anthropogenic-nitrates/ https://www.siskiyou.news/2024/01/24/blue-green-algae-in-cop... It pretends to be a regular news site, and even "scientific", to the point where it fooled Google and his site was often at the top of search results. He was also aggressively promoting his articles on Facebook. The guy is confusing green algae with bacteria. He's also ignoring the fact that the kind of blue-green "algae" in question, Microcystis aeruginosa, isn't the nitrogen-fixing kind. He has no clue was he's talking about, but that doesn't stop him, and he's unfortunately a major source of "knowledge" (confusion and misinformation) for the locals here.
aliasxneo 2y ago
> Resistance to dam removal on the Klamath is emblematic of the profound mistrust of official narratives that increasingly leads to such upside-down outcomes as survivors of climate disasters denying climate change, or rural communities accusing the wildfire fighters who protect their homes of deliberately setting the fires. Reservoir Reach is a place where, if KRRC is using helicopters to prep for dam removal, it must make sure the public knows that the choppers aren’t carrying out black ops against American sovereignty on behalf of the United Nations. The author seems to have developed quite a strong bias about the area.
- marssaxman 2y ago
  What about that statement sounds biased to you? To my ears, that is a plain spoken description of the culture of the area, compatible with what I have observed myself over the years.
  - s1artibartfast 2y ago
    It seems like it is painting with an overly broad brush, condemnation by anecdote, and characterization by the negative extremes. But then again, I have my own priors, which probably bias me to thinking these people have legitimate reasons to distrust authorities who view their lives as expendable.
  - aliasxneo 2y ago
    We must have completely different experiences, then. What years and where were you active in the is area? I’ve been visiting for over a decade doing hiking, fishing, spelunking, etc. Every town had tin hatters, but to paint the whole town like that is certainly extreme.
    - genter 2y ago
      I've never heard anyone express concern about UN helicopters, but at least in Southern Humboldt, there was a huge fear about the state and federal government using helicopters to bust people for growing weed. My uncle had a camera in the kitchen that he or my cousins would grab and pretend to take pictures of low flying aircraft (it was illegal to fly too close and thus any evidence collected would be thrown out by the court). I wouldn't be surprised if less scrupulous people would do something with a deer rifle. PG&E still announces in Lost Coast Outpost when they're inspecting power lines. I also heard that people at Trinity Pines were shooting at CalFire when they were helping with the fires 8 years ago. Hence the reason why it burned so bad.
s1artibartfast 2y ago
Not a bad article, all things considered, but I do think it gives a shallow treatment to reasons of the objectors to dam removal. How many people are impacted and how? Will they lose their businesses, jobs, and life savings? The closest it comes is talking about the spotted owl, where 30,000 people lost their loverhoods without compensation due to an environmental regulation that not only failed to deliver, but was doomed from the start. What are the parallels here?
- kristjansson 2y ago
  > According to PacifiCorp, the Oregon-based company that owns the Klamath dams today, the structures are mainly monitored and controlled remotely—from Lewis River, Washington, more than 500 kilometers away. Local jobs add up to 13, and all the affected employees either retired, voluntarily left the company, or will be reassigned within it. from the link. probably a few more people in recreation indirectly affected, but these are small, remote reservoirs. It's not like we're draining Lake Powell here[1] [1]: be still my beating heart
  - s1artibartfast 2y ago
    I was thinking more in terms of farmers and community along the river, people with lakeside land, and those downstream exposed to flooding, essentially wherever there opposition is pulling it's support from.
    - kristjansson 2y ago
      These are mountain dams, without meaningful irrigation or flood control applications, and dwindling hydroelectric utility. They impounded 3 reservoirs with a total surface area ~1/20th of Lake Washington, one of which has ~100 privately owned frontage parcels. Those owners lose their lakefront, but in a few years will enjoy views over and access to a river valley instead. Well founded objections should be treated with respect, but I think there's a lot of resistance that's born of (a) reflexive opposition to the 'other side' (b) false generalization of dam-removal arguments applicable to specific dams to all dams, and (c) the incorrect assumption that existing dams must have some utility (equivalently, unawareness of just how many __useless__ dams cover the west, these Klamath dams among them).

by aesch 2y ago

willsmith72 2y ago

People will believe and fight for literally anything, surely thousands of years of con men has taught us that. The fact that this guy with a whopping 4 generations in the area doesn't agree means next to nothing to me.

s1artibartfast 2y ago
The point isnt that some guy doesnt agree, it is the ideas and information they are communicating.

calibas 2y ago

A lot of the local opposition to dam removal is because of this guy specifically. Here's his article on why the toxic cyanobacteria that was in the former reservoirs is actually good for the river: https://www.siskiyou.news/2024/01/24/blue-green-algae-in-copco-and-iron-gate-lakes-behind-klamath-river-dams-natures-solution-for-anthropogenic-nitrates/ https://www.siskiyou.news/2024/01/24/blue-green-algae-in-cop... It pretends to be a regular news site, and even "scientific", to the point where it fooled Google and his site was often at the top of search results. He was also aggressively promoting his articles on Facebook. The guy is confusing green algae with bacteria. He's also ignoring the fact that the kind of blue-green "algae" in question, Microcystis aeruginosa, isn't the nitrogen-fixing kind. He has no clue was he's talking about, but that doesn't stop him, and he's unfortunately a major source of "knowledge" (confusion and misinformation) for the locals here.

aliasxneo 2y ago

> Resistance to dam removal on the Klamath is emblematic of the profound mistrust of official narratives that increasingly leads to such upside-down outcomes as survivors of climate disasters denying climate change, or rural communities accusing the wildfire fighters who protect their homes of deliberately setting the fires. Reservoir Reach is a place where, if KRRC is using helicopters to prep for dam removal, it must make sure the public knows that the choppers aren’t carrying out black ops against American sovereignty on behalf of the United Nations. The author seems to have developed quite a strong bias about the area.

marssaxman 2y ago
What about that statement sounds biased to you? To my ears, that is a plain spoken description of the culture of the area, compatible with what I have observed myself over the years.
- s1artibartfast 2y ago
  It seems like it is painting with an overly broad brush, condemnation by anecdote, and characterization by the negative extremes. But then again, I have my own priors, which probably bias me to thinking these people have legitimate reasons to distrust authorities who view their lives as expendable.
- aliasxneo 2y ago
  We must have completely different experiences, then. What years and where were you active in the is area? I’ve been visiting for over a decade doing hiking, fishing, spelunking, etc. Every town had tin hatters, but to paint the whole town like that is certainly extreme.
  - genter 2y ago
    I've never heard anyone express concern about UN helicopters, but at least in Southern Humboldt, there was a huge fear about the state and federal government using helicopters to bust people for growing weed. My uncle had a camera in the kitchen that he or my cousins would grab and pretend to take pictures of low flying aircraft (it was illegal to fly too close and thus any evidence collected would be thrown out by the court). I wouldn't be surprised if less scrupulous people would do something with a deer rifle. PG&E still announces in Lost Coast Outpost when they're inspecting power lines. I also heard that people at Trinity Pines were shooting at CalFire when they were helping with the fires 8 years ago. Hence the reason why it burned so bad.

s1artibartfast 2y ago

Not a bad article, all things considered, but I do think it gives a shallow treatment to reasons of the objectors to dam removal. How many people are impacted and how? Will they lose their businesses, jobs, and life savings? The closest it comes is talking about the spotted owl, where 30,000 people lost their loverhoods without compensation due to an environmental regulation that not only failed to deliver, but was doomed from the start. What are the parallels here?

kristjansson 2y ago
> According to PacifiCorp, the Oregon-based company that owns the Klamath dams today, the structures are mainly monitored and controlled remotely—from Lewis River, Washington, more than 500 kilometers away. Local jobs add up to 13, and all the affected employees either retired, voluntarily left the company, or will be reassigned within it. from the link. probably a few more people in recreation indirectly affected, but these are small, remote reservoirs. It's not like we're draining Lake Powell here[1] [1]: be still my beating heart
- s1artibartfast 2y ago
  I was thinking more in terms of farmers and community along the river, people with lakeside land, and those downstream exposed to flooding, essentially wherever there opposition is pulling it's support from.
  - kristjansson 2y ago
    These are mountain dams, without meaningful irrigation or flood control applications, and dwindling hydroelectric utility. They impounded 3 reservoirs with a total surface area ~1/20th of Lake Washington, one of which has ~100 privately owned frontage parcels. Those owners lose their lakefront, but in a few years will enjoy views over and access to a river valley instead. Well founded objections should be treated with respect, but I think there's a lot of resistance that's born of (a) reflexive opposition to the 'other side' (b) false generalization of dam-removal arguments applicable to specific dams to all dams, and (c) the incorrect assumption that existing dams must have some utility (equivalently, unawareness of just how many __useless__ dams cover the west, these Klamath dams among them).