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This misses the point. If you gave all of the F-35 IP to India they would still be incapable of developing the indigenous industries required to build a 5th ge

This misses the point. If you gave all of the F-35 IP to India they would still be incapable of developing the indigenous industries required to build a 5th generation fighter in a similar amount of time.

talldayo 2y ago
I think that misses the point too. If China has such competent indigenous aerospace industries then they shouldn't be relying on foreign designs for their engines and aircraft. If everyone else can design a proper 5th gen aircraft, why can't China? Part of China's overall strategy, since the theft of the Su-27 design, has been to exploit foreign concepts to give their military a modern-looking edge. But it's purely a paper tiger - China does not have the industry to even match the engine performance of USSR designs. Hundreds of their J-11 designated Su-27s fly with Russian engines and their current fleet almost entirely relies on potential engine overhauls to meet their minimum operational requirements. The PLA Air Force is an optimistic application of technologies that do not yet exist in the hope that one day it will achieve the desired tactical effect. We can see the effects of this strategy already. China's J-35 has been reportedly very unstable during flight with avionics and engines only reaching basic functionality. Of course, there is no F-35B clone either, so they've really only implemented the least-strategic models with what sounds like a skin-deep reverse-engineering job. China stole the designs to look tough, and now they're hiding the prototypes before they embarrass them in action. You might as well have just given the designs to India at that point, at least they're honest about their reliance on Russian technology.
- maxglute 2y ago
  I think it's not year 2000 anymore. PLAAF has been on indigenous turbofan more performant than USSR ALs for years. They are no longer reliant on RU engine imports for new/modern platforms, unless for old hardware where it doesn't make sense to re-engine, i.e. the oldest blocks of J11... even J11 post block2 (2010s) have transitioned to domestic engines. The 300s+ of J16 that supercedes J11... domestic engines. Navalized J15 last to transition, but again, now on domestic engines. Areas where they're around parity (i.e. high bypass) they're still making USSR/RU derriviative designs indigenously... hence the actual point, these are engines built in PRC because PRC actually has COMPETENT domestic aero sector to build them - hand plans to India and most other countries including most advanced economies and they simply can't because they lack requisit industrial base. There's zero credible news on J35s unless you go full retard on Indian or FLG defense writing. Who else can redesign a proper 5th gen except US and PRC. There's a reason USAF aggressor squad to mimick PRC 5th gen J20s uses actual F35s, while aggressor for RU 5th gen is F18s. And why would PLAAF they clone the strategic boondoggles that is F35Bs? STOVL F35B has crippled range for IndoPac theatre to the point where it's essentially irrelevant while mere existence has been largest source of fuckup for the entire F35 program due to common components requirement that dragged the other models down. There's a reason NGAD and other next gen programs are doubling down on range. Why supercarriers sticking with F18s while F35Bs are stuck on amphibs. The actual effects of PRC's successful indigenous aerospace strategy/procurement is throwing US 6GEN program into conniptions - NGAD isn't going back to drawing board after 10 years of development to have entire CONOPS reevaluated because of SU57. It's because PRC aerospace got very competent, very fast in last 15 years.
  - Onavo 2y ago
    The STOVL version looks much cooler. The other countries just couldn't figure out how to build it without it ending up bulky like a harrier.
    - maxglute 2y ago
      TBH I think F35 obese/fat/baluga Amy looks nice because it's bulky like harrier. But I also really dug the charm of slack jawed X32. Seeing stealth coatings on these fat birds is like watching goofy kids pull off sick fits.
      - throwaway48476 2y ago
        Fat Amy.
  - talldayo 2y ago
    > Who else can redesign a proper 5th gen except US and PRC. We don't even know if China's jets are 5th gen. The J-20 is a joke compared to the F-22 despite having 20 of lead time since America's 5th gen debut. If the US is using F-35s to simulate dogfighting a Chinese dual-engine air superiority platform, it's a sign they don't take them entirely seriously. After all, the F-16 is technically a better dogfight aggressor in USAF simulations. China is starting to see the fruits of their own aerospace investments, but they clearly haven't got parity even with the US's oldest 5th gen inventory. China is too cagey with J-35 information for a serious comparison to the F-35. The J-20 was laughed out of the room when it was announced it couldn't supercruise without engine overhauls, and it still struggles to hit Mach 2 with a combat load. The H20 hasn't even been formally unveiled yet, and it's doubtful it will reach feature parity with the B-2. The entire lineup is inherently questionable. > And why would PLAAF they clone the strategic boondoggles that is F35Bs? Uhh... Naval operations? Look, you're entirely right about the gimped range and the G limits of the F-35B. But the US selected it because there are damning tactical implications from a stealth fighter that can VTOL and carry AMRAAMs. The dogfighting specs really aren't even that relevant if you can get the standard A2A compliment into the air fast enough to fight. The value an F-35 can provide on the deck of an amphib or destroyer is immense and unmatched by any adversary. Screw the smaller range, you're on a goddamn boat! China would absolutely make the F-35B... if they could. > NGAD isn't going back to drawing board after 10 years of development to have entire CONOPS reevaluated because of SU57. NGAD can take as long as it needs. There isn't credible competition to America's air superiority platforms and any PRC victory in the Pacific, now or in the forseeable future (next 5-10 years), would have to be won through attrition. China knows this, it's why their shipyards are at-capacity in anticipation of needing the materiel. Taiwan manufactures their own antishipping missiles and America has 50 years of stockpiled AGM-84s. A balls-to-the-wall engagement between both powers could result in a hundred sinked ships in one day. The Taiwan strait is small, and once the PRC goes mask-off they'll have to hide every part of their Navy they don't want destroyed. I don't doubt that NGAD is taking the PLAAF into account, but I'm pretty sure they know that China's 5th gen jets struggle to maintain 4th generation operational capacity. America's foothold on 5th gen air combat is tenured and proven - China is clinging to a marketing bark over bite strategy that most people have rightfully ignored. If China was certain in their tactical capabilities then they would also copy the United State's strategy of limiting their aircraft inventory. The mass production is a tacit admission that China intends to destroy a lot of J-20s and J-35s.
- throwaway48476 2y ago
  Soviet engines were always bad with low hours between overhaul. They didn't think reliability was important if it was just going to be lost in the first hours of WW3.

talldayo 2y ago

I think that misses the point too. If China has such competent indigenous aerospace industries then they shouldn't be relying on foreign designs for their engines and aircraft. If everyone else can design a proper 5th gen aircraft, why can't China? Part of China's overall strategy, since the theft of the Su-27 design, has been to exploit foreign concepts to give their military a modern-looking edge. But it's purely a paper tiger - China does not have the industry to even match the engine performance of USSR designs. Hundreds of their J-11 designated Su-27s fly with Russian engines and their current fleet almost entirely relies on potential engine overhauls to meet their minimum operational requirements. The PLA Air Force is an optimistic application of technologies that do not yet exist in the hope that one day it will achieve the desired tactical effect. We can see the effects of this strategy already. China's J-35 has been reportedly very unstable during flight with avionics and engines only reaching basic functionality. Of course, there is no F-35B clone either, so they've really only implemented the least-strategic models with what sounds like a skin-deep reverse-engineering job. China stole the designs to look tough, and now they're hiding the prototypes before they embarrass them in action. You might as well have just given the designs to India at that point, at least they're honest about their reliance on Russian technology.

maxglute 2y ago
I think it's not year 2000 anymore. PLAAF has been on indigenous turbofan more performant than USSR ALs for years. They are no longer reliant on RU engine imports for new/modern platforms, unless for old hardware where it doesn't make sense to re-engine, i.e. the oldest blocks of J11... even J11 post block2 (2010s) have transitioned to domestic engines. The 300s+ of J16 that supercedes J11... domestic engines. Navalized J15 last to transition, but again, now on domestic engines. Areas where they're around parity (i.e. high bypass) they're still making USSR/RU derriviative designs indigenously... hence the actual point, these are engines built in PRC because PRC actually has COMPETENT domestic aero sector to build them - hand plans to India and most other countries including most advanced economies and they simply can't because they lack requisit industrial base. There's zero credible news on J35s unless you go full retard on Indian or FLG defense writing. Who else can redesign a proper 5th gen except US and PRC. There's a reason USAF aggressor squad to mimick PRC 5th gen J20s uses actual F35s, while aggressor for RU 5th gen is F18s. And why would PLAAF they clone the strategic boondoggles that is F35Bs? STOVL F35B has crippled range for IndoPac theatre to the point where it's essentially irrelevant while mere existence has been largest source of fuckup for the entire F35 program due to common components requirement that dragged the other models down. There's a reason NGAD and other next gen programs are doubling down on range. Why supercarriers sticking with F18s while F35Bs are stuck on amphibs. The actual effects of PRC's successful indigenous aerospace strategy/procurement is throwing US 6GEN program into conniptions - NGAD isn't going back to drawing board after 10 years of development to have entire CONOPS reevaluated because of SU57. It's because PRC aerospace got very competent, very fast in last 15 years.
- Onavo 2y ago
  The STOVL version looks much cooler. The other countries just couldn't figure out how to build it without it ending up bulky like a harrier.
  - maxglute 2y ago
    TBH I think F35 obese/fat/baluga Amy looks nice because it's bulky like harrier. But I also really dug the charm of slack jawed X32. Seeing stealth coatings on these fat birds is like watching goofy kids pull off sick fits.
    - throwaway48476 2y ago
      Fat Amy.
- talldayo 2y ago
  > Who else can redesign a proper 5th gen except US and PRC. We don't even know if China's jets are 5th gen. The J-20 is a joke compared to the F-22 despite having 20 of lead time since America's 5th gen debut. If the US is using F-35s to simulate dogfighting a Chinese dual-engine air superiority platform, it's a sign they don't take them entirely seriously. After all, the F-16 is technically a better dogfight aggressor in USAF simulations. China is starting to see the fruits of their own aerospace investments, but they clearly haven't got parity even with the US's oldest 5th gen inventory. China is too cagey with J-35 information for a serious comparison to the F-35. The J-20 was laughed out of the room when it was announced it couldn't supercruise without engine overhauls, and it still struggles to hit Mach 2 with a combat load. The H20 hasn't even been formally unveiled yet, and it's doubtful it will reach feature parity with the B-2. The entire lineup is inherently questionable. > And why would PLAAF they clone the strategic boondoggles that is F35Bs? Uhh... Naval operations? Look, you're entirely right about the gimped range and the G limits of the F-35B. But the US selected it because there are damning tactical implications from a stealth fighter that can VTOL and carry AMRAAMs. The dogfighting specs really aren't even that relevant if you can get the standard A2A compliment into the air fast enough to fight. The value an F-35 can provide on the deck of an amphib or destroyer is immense and unmatched by any adversary. Screw the smaller range, you're on a goddamn boat! China would absolutely make the F-35B... if they could. > NGAD isn't going back to drawing board after 10 years of development to have entire CONOPS reevaluated because of SU57. NGAD can take as long as it needs. There isn't credible competition to America's air superiority platforms and any PRC victory in the Pacific, now or in the forseeable future (next 5-10 years), would have to be won through attrition. China knows this, it's why their shipyards are at-capacity in anticipation of needing the materiel. Taiwan manufactures their own antishipping missiles and America has 50 years of stockpiled AGM-84s. A balls-to-the-wall engagement between both powers could result in a hundred sinked ships in one day. The Taiwan strait is small, and once the PRC goes mask-off they'll have to hide every part of their Navy they don't want destroyed. I don't doubt that NGAD is taking the PLAAF into account, but I'm pretty sure they know that China's 5th gen jets struggle to maintain 4th generation operational capacity. America's foothold on 5th gen air combat is tenured and proven - China is clinging to a marketing bark over bite strategy that most people have rightfully ignored. If China was certain in their tactical capabilities then they would also copy the United State's strategy of limiting their aircraft inventory. The mass production is a tacit admission that China intends to destroy a lot of J-20s and J-35s.
throwaway48476 2y ago
Soviet engines were always bad with low hours between overhaul. They didn't think reliability was important if it was just going to be lost in the first hours of WW3.