18 ms·

Good enough to be used for gaming? Really want Apple to get into that because dealing with Windows sucks.

whynotminot 2y ago
They’ve always been good enough for gaming. The problem has just been whether or not publishers would bother releasing the games. It’s unfortunate that Apple can’t seem to really build enough momentum here to become a gaming destination.
- yalogin 2y ago
  I think they will get there in time. They like to focus on things and not spread themselves thin. They always wanted to get the gaming market share but AI is taking all their time now.
  - macintux 2y ago
    I'm not sure how many chances they'll get to persuade developers that this time they really mean it. It sounds like Apple Arcade is a flop.
    - samatman 2y ago
      Is this one of those cases where "flop" means "this product would have a billion dollar market cap if it was a company, but since it's Apple, it's a flop". It is isn't it. https://forums.appleinsider.com/discussion/234969/apple-arcade-user-volume-nearly-matches-nintendo-switch-online-and-steam-players https://forums.appleinsider.com/discussion/234969/apple-arca...
  - rswail 2y ago
    Given that a Mac mini with an M4 is basically the same size and shape as an Apple TV, they could make a new Apple TV that was a gaming console as well. Why is the Apple TV only focused on passive entertainment?
    - ceejayoz 2y ago
      Apple TV is a gaming console. https://www.apple.com/apple-arcade/ https://www.apple.com/apple-arcade/
- crazygringo 2y ago
  It has always baffled me why Apple doesn't take gaming seriously. It's another revenue stream, it would sell more Macs. It's profit. Is it just some weird cultural thing? Or is there some kind of genuine technical reason for it, like it would involve some kind of tradeoffs around security or limiting architecture changes or something? Especially with the M-series chips, it feels like they had the opportunity to make a major gaming push and bring publishers on board... but just nothing, at least with AAA games. They're content with cartoony content in Apple Arcade solely on mobile.
  - ceejayoz 2y ago
    > It has always baffled me why Apple doesn't take gaming seriously. They aren't really the ones that have to.
    - crazygringo 2y ago
      But they are. They need to subsidize porting AAA games to solve the chicken-and-egg problem. Gaming platforms don't just arise organically. They require partnership between platform and publishers, organized by the platform and with financial investment by the platform.
      - talldayo 2y ago
        > They need to subsidize porting AAA games to solve the chicken-and-egg problem. glances at the Steam Machine And how long do they have to fail at that before trying a new approach?
  - whynotminot 2y ago
    If you look at things like Game Porting Toolkit, Apple actually is investing resources here. It just feels like they came along so late to really trying that it’s going to be a minute for things to actually happen. I would love to buy the new Mac Mini and sit it under my TV as a mini console. But it just feels like we’re not quite there yet for that purpose, even though the horse power is there.
  - 2y ago
- jsheard 2y ago
  Apple's aggressive deprecation policies haven't done them any favors when it comes to games, they expect software to be updated to their latest ISAs and APIs in perpetuity but games are rarely supported forever. In many cases the developers don't even exist anymore. A lot of native Mac game ports got wiped out by 32bit being EOL'ed, and it'll probably happen again when they inevitably phase out Rosetta 2 and OpenGL support.
- x-_-x 2y ago
  [dead]
- goosedragons 2y ago
  No they haven't. For years the best you could get was "meh" to terrible GPUs at high price points. Like $2000+ was where getting a discrete GPU began. The M series stuff finally allows the entry level to have decent GPUs but they have less storage out of the box than a $300 Xbox Series S. Apple's priorities just don't align well with gamers. They prioritize resolution over refresh rate and response time, make mice unusable for basically any FPS made in the past 20 years and way overcharge for storage and RAM.
evilduck 2y ago
That depends on what you want to play and what other things that suck that you’re willing to tolerate. The GPUs in previous M chips aren’t beating AMD or NVidia’s top offerings on anything except VRAM but you can definitely play games with them. Apple has released their Game Porting Toolkit a couple years ago which is basically like Wine/Proton in Linux and if you’re comfortable with Wine and approximately what a Steam Deck can run then that’s about what you can expect to run on a newer Mac. Installing Steam or GOG Galaxy with something like Whiskey.app (which leverages the game porting toolkit) opens up a large number of games on macOS. Games that need Windows root kits are probably a pain point, and you’re probably not going to push all those video setting sliders to the far right for Ultra graphics on a 4K screen, but there’s a lot of games that are very playable on macOS and M chips.
- mattgreenrocks 2y ago
  Wow, had no idea this worked as well as it does. I remember the initial hype when this showed up but didn't follow along. Looks like I don't have to regard my Steam library as entirely gone. Steam Deck-level performance is quite fine, I mainly just want to replay the older FromSoft games and my favorite indies every now and then.
  - evilduck 2y ago
    Fair warning, I haven't dug that deep into compatibility issues or 32 bit gaming compatibility but it's definitely something to experiment with and for the most part you can find out for free before making a purchasing decision. First and foremost, it's just worth checking if your game has a native port: https://store.steampowered.com/macos https://store.steampowered.com/macos People might be surprised what's already available. With Wine syscall and Rosetta x86 code translation, issues do pop up from time to time though, like games that have cutscenes that are encoded as Windows Media Player specific formats, or any other media codecs which aren't immediately available since it's not like games advertise those technology requirements anywhere and you may encounter video stuttering or artifacts since the hardware is obviously dramatically different than what the game developers were originally developing against and there's things happening in the background that an x86 Windows system never does. This isn't stuff that's overly Mac specific since it usually impacts Linux equally but it's a hurdle to jump that you don't have to deal with in native Windows. Like I said, playing Windows games outside of Windows is just a different set of pain points and you have to be able to tolerate it. Some people think it's worth it and some people would rather have higher game availability and keep the pain of Windows. Kudos to Valve with creating a linux based handheld and the Wine and Proton projects for improving this situation dramatically though. Besides the Game Porting Toolkit (which was originally intended for game developers to create native application bundles that could be put on the App Store), there's also Crossover for Mac that does their own work towards resolving a lot of these issues and they have a compatibility list you can view on their site: https://www.codeweavers.com/ https://www.codeweavers.com/ and alternatively, some games run acceptably inside virtualization if you're willing to still deal with Windows in a sandboxed way. Parallels is able to run many games with better compatibility since you're actually running Windows, though last I checked DX12 was a problem.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
paol 2y ago
Well we're about to find out now that CDPR have announced Cyberpunk 2077 will get a native Metal port. I for one am extremely curious with the result. Apple have made very lofty claims about their GPU performance, but without any high-end games running natively, it's been hard to evaluate those claims. That said, expectations should be kept at a realistic level. Even if the M4 has the fastest embedded GPU (it probably does), it's still an embedded GPU. They aren't going to be topping any absolute performance charts.
eigenspace 2y ago
Gaming isn't just about hardware, it's also about software, economics, trust and relationships. Apple has quite impressive hardware (though their GPUs are still not close to high-end discrete GPUs), but they're also fast enough. The problem now is that Apple systematically does not have a culture that respects gaming or is interested in courting gamers. Games also rely on OS stability, but Apple has famously short and severe deprecation periods. They ocassionally make pushes in that direction, but I think they lack the will to make a concerted effort, and I also think they lack the restraint to not try and force everything through their own payment processors and distribution systems causing sour relations with developers.
braymundo 2y ago
Incidentally, CD Projekt announced Cyberpunk 2077 Ultimate Edition for Mac yesterday. There is hope! :) https://www.cyberpunk.net/en/news/50947/just-announced-cyberpunk-2077-ultimate-edition-coming-to-mac https://www.cyberpunk.net/en/news/50947/just-announced-cyber...
Refusing23 2y ago
you can game on linux though. almost all games work just fine. (well, almost)
dogleash 2y ago
Valve has/continues to do way more to make Linux a viable gaming platform than Apple will likely ever do for mac I get it, you want to leave windows by way of mac. But your options are to either bite the bullet and expend a tiny bit of your professional skill on setting up a machine with linux, or stay on windows for the foreseeable future.

They’ve always been good enough for gaming. The problem has just been whether or not publishers would bother releasing the games. It’s unfortunate that Apple can’t seem to really build enough momentum here to become a gaming destination.

yalogin 2y ago
I think they will get there in time. They like to focus on things and not spread themselves thin. They always wanted to get the gaming market share but AI is taking all their time now.
- macintux 2y ago
  I'm not sure how many chances they'll get to persuade developers that this time they really mean it. It sounds like Apple Arcade is a flop.
  - samatman 2y ago
    Is this one of those cases where "flop" means "this product would have a billion dollar market cap if it was a company, but since it's Apple, it's a flop". It is isn't it. https://forums.appleinsider.com/discussion/234969/apple-arcade-user-volume-nearly-matches-nintendo-switch-online-and-steam-players https://forums.appleinsider.com/discussion/234969/apple-arca...
- rswail 2y ago
  Given that a Mac mini with an M4 is basically the same size and shape as an Apple TV, they could make a new Apple TV that was a gaming console as well. Why is the Apple TV only focused on passive entertainment?
  - ceejayoz 2y ago
    Apple TV is a gaming console. https://www.apple.com/apple-arcade/ https://www.apple.com/apple-arcade/
crazygringo 2y ago
It has always baffled me why Apple doesn't take gaming seriously. It's another revenue stream, it would sell more Macs. It's profit. Is it just some weird cultural thing? Or is there some kind of genuine technical reason for it, like it would involve some kind of tradeoffs around security or limiting architecture changes or something? Especially with the M-series chips, it feels like they had the opportunity to make a major gaming push and bring publishers on board... but just nothing, at least with AAA games. They're content with cartoony content in Apple Arcade solely on mobile.
- ceejayoz 2y ago
  > It has always baffled me why Apple doesn't take gaming seriously. They aren't really the ones that have to.
  - crazygringo 2y ago
    But they are. They need to subsidize porting AAA games to solve the chicken-and-egg problem. Gaming platforms don't just arise organically. They require partnership between platform and publishers, organized by the platform and with financial investment by the platform.
    - talldayo 2y ago
      > They need to subsidize porting AAA games to solve the chicken-and-egg problem. glances at the Steam Machine And how long do they have to fail at that before trying a new approach?
- whynotminot 2y ago
  If you look at things like Game Porting Toolkit, Apple actually is investing resources here. It just feels like they came along so late to really trying that it’s going to be a minute for things to actually happen. I would love to buy the new Mac Mini and sit it under my TV as a mini console. But it just feels like we’re not quite there yet for that purpose, even though the horse power is there.
- 2y ago
jsheard 2y ago
Apple's aggressive deprecation policies haven't done them any favors when it comes to games, they expect software to be updated to their latest ISAs and APIs in perpetuity but games are rarely supported forever. In many cases the developers don't even exist anymore. A lot of native Mac game ports got wiped out by 32bit being EOL'ed, and it'll probably happen again when they inevitably phase out Rosetta 2 and OpenGL support.
x-_-x 2y ago
[dead]
goosedragons 2y ago
No they haven't. For years the best you could get was "meh" to terrible GPUs at high price points. Like $2000+ was where getting a discrete GPU began. The M series stuff finally allows the entry level to have decent GPUs but they have less storage out of the box than a $300 Xbox Series S. Apple's priorities just don't align well with gamers. They prioritize resolution over refresh rate and response time, make mice unusable for basically any FPS made in the past 20 years and way overcharge for storage and RAM.

evilduck 2y ago

That depends on what you want to play and what other things that suck that you’re willing to tolerate. The GPUs in previous M chips aren’t beating AMD or NVidia’s top offerings on anything except VRAM but you can definitely play games with them. Apple has released their Game Porting Toolkit a couple years ago which is basically like Wine/Proton in Linux and if you’re comfortable with Wine and approximately what a Steam Deck can run then that’s about what you can expect to run on a newer Mac. Installing Steam or GOG Galaxy with something like Whiskey.app (which leverages the game porting toolkit) opens up a large number of games on macOS. Games that need Windows root kits are probably a pain point, and you’re probably not going to push all those video setting sliders to the far right for Ultra graphics on a 4K screen, but there’s a lot of games that are very playable on macOS and M chips.

mattgreenrocks 2y ago
Wow, had no idea this worked as well as it does. I remember the initial hype when this showed up but didn't follow along. Looks like I don't have to regard my Steam library as entirely gone. Steam Deck-level performance is quite fine, I mainly just want to replay the older FromSoft games and my favorite indies every now and then.
- evilduck 2y ago
  Fair warning, I haven't dug that deep into compatibility issues or 32 bit gaming compatibility but it's definitely something to experiment with and for the most part you can find out for free before making a purchasing decision. First and foremost, it's just worth checking if your game has a native port: https://store.steampowered.com/macos https://store.steampowered.com/macos People might be surprised what's already available. With Wine syscall and Rosetta x86 code translation, issues do pop up from time to time though, like games that have cutscenes that are encoded as Windows Media Player specific formats, or any other media codecs which aren't immediately available since it's not like games advertise those technology requirements anywhere and you may encounter video stuttering or artifacts since the hardware is obviously dramatically different than what the game developers were originally developing against and there's things happening in the background that an x86 Windows system never does. This isn't stuff that's overly Mac specific since it usually impacts Linux equally but it's a hurdle to jump that you don't have to deal with in native Windows. Like I said, playing Windows games outside of Windows is just a different set of pain points and you have to be able to tolerate it. Some people think it's worth it and some people would rather have higher game availability and keep the pain of Windows. Kudos to Valve with creating a linux based handheld and the Wine and Proton projects for improving this situation dramatically though. Besides the Game Porting Toolkit (which was originally intended for game developers to create native application bundles that could be put on the App Store), there's also Crossover for Mac that does their own work towards resolving a lot of these issues and they have a compatibility list you can view on their site: https://www.codeweavers.com/ https://www.codeweavers.com/ and alternatively, some games run acceptably inside virtualization if you're willing to still deal with Windows in a sandboxed way. Parallels is able to run many games with better compatibility since you're actually running Windows, though last I checked DX12 was a problem.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

paol 2y ago

Well we're about to find out now that CDPR have announced Cyberpunk 2077 will get a native Metal port. I for one am extremely curious with the result. Apple have made very lofty claims about their GPU performance, but without any high-end games running natively, it's been hard to evaluate those claims. That said, expectations should be kept at a realistic level. Even if the M4 has the fastest embedded GPU (it probably does), it's still an embedded GPU. They aren't going to be topping any absolute performance charts.

eigenspace 2y ago

Gaming isn't just about hardware, it's also about software, economics, trust and relationships. Apple has quite impressive hardware (though their GPUs are still not close to high-end discrete GPUs), but they're also fast enough. The problem now is that Apple systematically does not have a culture that respects gaming or is interested in courting gamers. Games also rely on OS stability, but Apple has famously short and severe deprecation periods. They ocassionally make pushes in that direction, but I think they lack the will to make a concerted effort, and I also think they lack the restraint to not try and force everything through their own payment processors and distribution systems causing sour relations with developers.

braymundo 2y ago

Incidentally, CD Projekt announced Cyberpunk 2077 Ultimate Edition for Mac yesterday. There is hope! :) https://www.cyberpunk.net/en/news/50947/just-announced-cyberpunk-2077-ultimate-edition-coming-to-mac https://www.cyberpunk.net/en/news/50947/just-announced-cyber...

Refusing23 2y ago

you can game on linux though. almost all games work just fine. (well, almost)

dogleash 2y ago

Valve has/continues to do way more to make Linux a viable gaming platform than Apple will likely ever do for mac I get it, you want to leave windows by way of mac. But your options are to either bite the bullet and expend a tiny bit of your professional skill on setting up a machine with linux, or stay on windows for the foreseeable future.