6 ms·

also, societies are generally just fine trading discomfort for profit. a fine example is ceiling height in colonial american homes: sure people were somewhat

also, societies are generally just fine trading discomfort for profit. a fine example is ceiling height in colonial american homes: sure people were somewhat shorter then on average, but also and more importantly, smaller rooms are easier to heat, and the tall lumber is worth far too much to waste on stupid things like houses, so you suck it up and stoop when you’re indoors. interpreting the dimensions of historical goods is tricky.

potato3732842 2y ago
Colonial American homes are not so short ceilinged that the average person, even today, needs to watch their heads. Ducking in doorways isn't a big deal. Yes, standards for comfort were different back then but you don't see things get built that are actively hard to use unless there is some very serious thing you get from the tradeoff (like the deck heights in ships) because things need to be used to produce results. In a world where stuff is expensive and labor is cheap things get build such that the ability to apply labor to them is not a bottleneck. For example a work station that can be effectively operated by larger people tends to permit smaller people to work really fast without conflicting as much if the situation demands it. Some tool that operates by human muscle power and is just the right balance of mechanical advantage vs speed for the smallest man in normal conditions can be worked by a woman or child in ideal circumstances or a normal may may be able to work it for extended hours under normal conditions. Whether the tradeoffs make sense depends on the application.
- pavel_lishin 2y ago
  Amusingly, though, modern homes sometimes are. When we were house shopping, we saw a house whose basement ceiling was perfectly serviceable, albeit maybe a little cramped, for the family living there - none of whom appeared to be over 5'6" - but I would have to stoop the entire time I was in the (fully finished! as an entertainment/living room!) basement. I think the ceiling was something like 5'10".
  - cafard 2y ago
    A college friend, about 5'2", married a guy 6'2" or 6'3". He had enough money that they had a house built, and the architect or builder put in a room just for her, where nobody over 5'6" or so could stand up straight. Frank Lloyd Wright was not tall. We toured a home he had built somewhere in LA, and I think that anyone over about 6'3" would have wanted to avoid thick-soled sneakers. I said to the docent, Not a lot of Lakers receptions here? He agreed.
bluGill 2y ago
Wood was plentiful and cheap in colonial America so tall lumber wasn't worth much more than shorter. You had to cut far more trees than the house and barns needed anyway (one reason log cabins were popular - they were made of waste) to make room for the fields. However it was still a lot of work to cut the wood (log cabins required you to square all the logs - round logs will roll off each other and make for large gaps, square the logs and they stack well and have smaller gaps between them - you could use round for the sides, but typically you wanted all 4 sides square to make nicer rooms), so you often would say good enough when the room was shorter just to avoid the labor. In Europe wood was much more expensive (they had been using it for 1000 years or so). The natives in America had different practices and so didn't typically use wood the way settlers did.
- throw0101a 2y ago
  > However it was still a lot of work to cut the wood (log cabins required you to square all the logs - round logs will roll off each other and make for large gaps Square logs are not needed if you notch your round logs: * https://www.logcabinhub.com/log-cabin-notches/ https://www.logcabinhub.com/log-cabin-notches/
  - mattlondon 2y ago
    The notching is great for the hypothetical 100% circular log, but there will still be undulations and curves and twists and weird bumps and lumps etc that would make for quite large gaps between layers. You would need to either flatten/groove the entire length of the log, or find some other way to fill the gaps. I am no expert but I have vague recollection of watching westerns etc where there appears to be clay packed into the joint between the logs which I guess would make a decent join.
    - AlgorithmicTime 2y ago
      [dead]
    - bluGill 2y ago
      They did use clay, but the logs were still squared off so they fit. Westerns were generally filmed by people who had never lived in or seen a log cabin (or if they did the walls were covered with something else and so they didn't know what was inside) and so they are not a good guide to what was really done.
tokai 2y ago
Soviet MBTs are a great example of this. Even after selecting for short tankers, they are still very uncomfortable.

potato3732842 2y ago

Colonial American homes are not so short ceilinged that the average person, even today, needs to watch their heads. Ducking in doorways isn't a big deal. Yes, standards for comfort were different back then but you don't see things get built that are actively hard to use unless there is some very serious thing you get from the tradeoff (like the deck heights in ships) because things need to be used to produce results. In a world where stuff is expensive and labor is cheap things get build such that the ability to apply labor to them is not a bottleneck. For example a work station that can be effectively operated by larger people tends to permit smaller people to work really fast without conflicting as much if the situation demands it. Some tool that operates by human muscle power and is just the right balance of mechanical advantage vs speed for the smallest man in normal conditions can be worked by a woman or child in ideal circumstances or a normal may may be able to work it for extended hours under normal conditions. Whether the tradeoffs make sense depends on the application.

pavel_lishin 2y ago
Amusingly, though, modern homes sometimes are. When we were house shopping, we saw a house whose basement ceiling was perfectly serviceable, albeit maybe a little cramped, for the family living there - none of whom appeared to be over 5'6" - but I would have to stoop the entire time I was in the (fully finished! as an entertainment/living room!) basement. I think the ceiling was something like 5'10".
- cafard 2y ago
  A college friend, about 5'2", married a guy 6'2" or 6'3". He had enough money that they had a house built, and the architect or builder put in a room just for her, where nobody over 5'6" or so could stand up straight. Frank Lloyd Wright was not tall. We toured a home he had built somewhere in LA, and I think that anyone over about 6'3" would have wanted to avoid thick-soled sneakers. I said to the docent, Not a lot of Lakers receptions here? He agreed.

bluGill 2y ago

Wood was plentiful and cheap in colonial America so tall lumber wasn't worth much more than shorter. You had to cut far more trees than the house and barns needed anyway (one reason log cabins were popular - they were made of waste) to make room for the fields. However it was still a lot of work to cut the wood (log cabins required you to square all the logs - round logs will roll off each other and make for large gaps, square the logs and they stack well and have smaller gaps between them - you could use round for the sides, but typically you wanted all 4 sides square to make nicer rooms), so you often would say good enough when the room was shorter just to avoid the labor. In Europe wood was much more expensive (they had been using it for 1000 years or so). The natives in America had different practices and so didn't typically use wood the way settlers did.

throw0101a 2y ago
> However it was still a lot of work to cut the wood (log cabins required you to square all the logs - round logs will roll off each other and make for large gaps Square logs are not needed if you notch your round logs: * https://www.logcabinhub.com/log-cabin-notches/ https://www.logcabinhub.com/log-cabin-notches/
- mattlondon 2y ago
  The notching is great for the hypothetical 100% circular log, but there will still be undulations and curves and twists and weird bumps and lumps etc that would make for quite large gaps between layers. You would need to either flatten/groove the entire length of the log, or find some other way to fill the gaps. I am no expert but I have vague recollection of watching westerns etc where there appears to be clay packed into the joint between the logs which I guess would make a decent join.
  - AlgorithmicTime 2y ago
    [dead]
  - bluGill 2y ago
    They did use clay, but the logs were still squared off so they fit. Westerns were generally filmed by people who had never lived in or seen a log cabin (or if they did the walls were covered with something else and so they didn't know what was inside) and so they are not a good guide to what was really done.

tokai 2y ago

Soviet MBTs are a great example of this. Even after selecting for short tankers, they are still very uncomfortable.