6 ms·

The article is just correctly identifying that late 1800s french colonial technocrats were predominantly white males. The article isn't really making a particu

The article is just correctly identifying that late 1800s french colonial technocrats were predominantly white males. The article isn't really making a particular point about this, it's just a quick aside. What are you referring to when you say "here we go again"?

BoingBoomTschak 2y ago
The role of epistemic superiority structures a persistent division throughout the Voyages between the white male scientist (in the singular) and ignorant natives (in the plural)’ The addition of completely unnecessary (to the comparison) "male" really paints this as flag waving.
SnoopJobbyJob 2y ago
People in Europe are white. Of course engineers, politicians, cooks, street sweepers are going to be white. Societies, not only in Europe, have historically been men-dominated. So, again, the elite is going to be mostly men. It is relevant that what you call a "quick aside" was even made because it reveals the mindset and deeper agenda that pervades some parts of academia and political circles these days, which bluntly is anti-white (and, God forbid, male ones).
- jylam 2y ago
  Jules Vernes is a notorious misogynist and racist. Read "The Mysterious Island" for instance. He was a product of his time, but clearly not the best one on those grounds. Also "People in Europe are white" is really something you just hear from people without any European historical culture, and/or people wanting to sell a racist ideology. You have the whole spectrum of colors in Europe, and that's not recent at all. Africa is 30km from Europe, Asia is connected to it, and people travel since before we were modern humans.
  - JetSetWilly 2y ago
    You must work in the BBC drama department if you believe that people in Britain, France, Germany etc are not historically and overwhelmingly white.
    - thrance 2y ago
      Factually, whites were a minority in the French Colonial Empire of the 19th century.
      - e40 2y ago
        The empire was much more than the places mentioned in the comment you’re replying to.
        Apocryphon 2y ago
        Algeria was considered an integral département of France, so technically they might be right if that population was substantial enough.
  - adrianN 2y ago
    Was Verne more, or less, misogynist and racist than his contemporaries? I was under the impression that both were common during his day. From the little Verne that I've read, I didn't have the impression that he had a particularly bad opinion of "the savages" he describes in his stories.
  - Majestic121 2y ago
    > "People in Europe are white" is really something you just hear from people without any European historical culture, and/or people wanting to sell a racist ideology There's of course a lot of cross-communication with other continents, from the muslim conquest of the Iberian peninsula to the Ottoman wars in eastern Europe, and the colonizing empires. But the European history is very strongly predominantly white, and pretending otherwise is something you only hear from politically oriented people, unless you try to push ridiculous ideas like 'Italians are not white' as I've seen here and there
    - defrost 2y ago
      > European history is of course very strongly predominantly white "White" ? In the context of the thinking in Europe at the time of Verne .. what is "white"? eg: The Races of Europe: A Sociological Study (1899) - Ripley Ripley classified Europeans into three distinct races: Teutonic [..] Mediterranean [..] Alpine [..] Ripley's tripartite system of race put him at odds both with others on the topic of human difference, including those who insisted that there was only one European race, and those who insisted that there were at least ten European races (such as Joseph Deniker, whom Ripley saw as his chief rival). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Races_of_Europe_(Ripley_book) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Races_of_Europe_(Ripley_bo... > unless you try to push ridiculous ideas like 'Italians are not white' Most people of the time accepted as "obvious" that Italians were not Germanic in race ...
      - Majestic121 2y ago
        You're talking about the general history of Europe, and the vision in our current culture, why are you trying to push an obsolete taxonomy "of the time" ?
        defrost 2y ago
        > You're talking about the general history of Europe I'm referencing ideas current in the time of Jules Verne .. > and the vision in our current culture I made no reference to current notions .. > why are you trying to push an obsolete taxonomy "of the time" ? I'm doing no such thing. FWiW I think the ideas cited from 1899 were wrong then and still wrong today. Perhaps you might try reading more carefully?
- billyoyo 2y ago
  It is only "anti-white" in the sense it's criticizing white men from over a hundred years ago who were doing pretty horrible things in the name of colonialism. And the fact they were white is pretty important as they themselves used this as justification for their superiority and thus colonialism. It would be more productive to engage with the meat of the article rather than dismissing it because they mentioned the race and gender of the subjects and engaging in "anti-woke" dog whistling.
  - SnoopJobbyJob 2y ago
    Why do you need to refer to Europeans as "white men" then? To me this highlights the deeper thinking, if not obsession, of the person... It's similar to the anti-Japanese and anti-Chinese campaigns in the US in the 40s to 60s that over-stressed the "race" of those people. It's similar to the classic racism of over-stressing how Africans are black.
- thrance 2y ago
  Funnily enough, white people were a minority in the French Empire of the 19th century, where Vernes wrote his books. You should read about the second revolution of France, in 1848, where women's role in creating the IInd Republic was instrumental, and yet were refused the right to vote. Underlining those thematics in Vernes books is still interesting, it doesn't have to be relevant to today. Also, what's that thing about academia and politicians being "anti-white"? This sounds weird.
tphyahoo 2y ago
[dead]
seszett 2y ago
I'm not sure this analysis is totally correct though, after all without spoiling to much, an Indian prince features prominently in some of the best known stories of Jules Verne, and another of the famous ones is about a Chinese man. And most stories take place with characters that are British or American bordering on parodies, rarely French people. It's true that women are rarely important though. Also disclaimer, I didn't read this article.
- billyoyo 2y ago
  The article is talking about how his stories inspired real world colonial technocrats in France at the time.
tphyahoo2 2y ago
[flagged]
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]

BoingBoomTschak 2y ago

The role of epistemic superiority structures a persistent division throughout the Voyages between the white male scientist (in the singular) and ignorant natives (in the plural)’ The addition of completely unnecessary (to the comparison) "male" really paints this as flag waving.

SnoopJobbyJob 2y ago

People in Europe are white. Of course engineers, politicians, cooks, street sweepers are going to be white. Societies, not only in Europe, have historically been men-dominated. So, again, the elite is going to be mostly men. It is relevant that what you call a "quick aside" was even made because it reveals the mindset and deeper agenda that pervades some parts of academia and political circles these days, which bluntly is anti-white (and, God forbid, male ones).

jylam 2y ago
Jules Vernes is a notorious misogynist and racist. Read "The Mysterious Island" for instance. He was a product of his time, but clearly not the best one on those grounds. Also "People in Europe are white" is really something you just hear from people without any European historical culture, and/or people wanting to sell a racist ideology. You have the whole spectrum of colors in Europe, and that's not recent at all. Africa is 30km from Europe, Asia is connected to it, and people travel since before we were modern humans.
- JetSetWilly 2y ago
  You must work in the BBC drama department if you believe that people in Britain, France, Germany etc are not historically and overwhelmingly white.
  - thrance 2y ago
    Factually, whites were a minority in the French Colonial Empire of the 19th century.
    - e40 2y ago
      The empire was much more than the places mentioned in the comment you’re replying to.
      - Apocryphon 2y ago
        Algeria was considered an integral département of France, so technically they might be right if that population was substantial enough.
- adrianN 2y ago
  Was Verne more, or less, misogynist and racist than his contemporaries? I was under the impression that both were common during his day. From the little Verne that I've read, I didn't have the impression that he had a particularly bad opinion of "the savages" he describes in his stories.
- Majestic121 2y ago
  > "People in Europe are white" is really something you just hear from people without any European historical culture, and/or people wanting to sell a racist ideology There's of course a lot of cross-communication with other continents, from the muslim conquest of the Iberian peninsula to the Ottoman wars in eastern Europe, and the colonizing empires. But the European history is very strongly predominantly white, and pretending otherwise is something you only hear from politically oriented people, unless you try to push ridiculous ideas like 'Italians are not white' as I've seen here and there
  - defrost 2y ago
    > European history is of course very strongly predominantly white "White" ? In the context of the thinking in Europe at the time of Verne .. what is "white"? eg: The Races of Europe: A Sociological Study (1899) - Ripley Ripley classified Europeans into three distinct races: Teutonic [..] Mediterranean [..] Alpine [..] Ripley's tripartite system of race put him at odds both with others on the topic of human difference, including those who insisted that there was only one European race, and those who insisted that there were at least ten European races (such as Joseph Deniker, whom Ripley saw as his chief rival). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Races_of_Europe_(Ripley_book) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Races_of_Europe_(Ripley_bo... > unless you try to push ridiculous ideas like 'Italians are not white' Most people of the time accepted as "obvious" that Italians were not Germanic in race ...
    - Majestic121 2y ago
      You're talking about the general history of Europe, and the vision in our current culture, why are you trying to push an obsolete taxonomy "of the time" ?
      - defrost 2y ago
        > You're talking about the general history of Europe I'm referencing ideas current in the time of Jules Verne .. > and the vision in our current culture I made no reference to current notions .. > why are you trying to push an obsolete taxonomy "of the time" ? I'm doing no such thing. FWiW I think the ideas cited from 1899 were wrong then and still wrong today. Perhaps you might try reading more carefully?
billyoyo 2y ago
It is only "anti-white" in the sense it's criticizing white men from over a hundred years ago who were doing pretty horrible things in the name of colonialism. And the fact they were white is pretty important as they themselves used this as justification for their superiority and thus colonialism. It would be more productive to engage with the meat of the article rather than dismissing it because they mentioned the race and gender of the subjects and engaging in "anti-woke" dog whistling.
- SnoopJobbyJob 2y ago
  Why do you need to refer to Europeans as "white men" then? To me this highlights the deeper thinking, if not obsession, of the person... It's similar to the anti-Japanese and anti-Chinese campaigns in the US in the 40s to 60s that over-stressed the "race" of those people. It's similar to the classic racism of over-stressing how Africans are black.
thrance 2y ago
Funnily enough, white people were a minority in the French Empire of the 19th century, where Vernes wrote his books. You should read about the second revolution of France, in 1848, where women's role in creating the IInd Republic was instrumental, and yet were refused the right to vote. Underlining those thematics in Vernes books is still interesting, it doesn't have to be relevant to today. Also, what's that thing about academia and politicians being "anti-white"? This sounds weird.

tphyahoo 2y ago

[dead]

seszett 2y ago

I'm not sure this analysis is totally correct though, after all without spoiling to much, an Indian prince features prominently in some of the best known stories of Jules Verne, and another of the famous ones is about a Chinese man. And most stories take place with characters that are British or American bordering on parodies, rarely French people. It's true that women are rarely important though. Also disclaimer, I didn't read this article.

billyoyo 2y ago
The article is talking about how his stories inspired real world colonial technocrats in France at the time.

tphyahoo2 2y ago

[flagged]

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]