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My understanding after reading the west point article is that Israel is only bound to the effect of an armed conflict between nations, not against Hezbollah as

by rougka 2y ago

My understanding after reading the west point article is that Israel is only bound to the effect of an armed conflict between nations, not against Hezbollah as that is an Annex they haven't signed Furthermore, from the language of the west point article I understand he only states that this (The booby trap clause) is the only part of international law that may apply, not that it actually applies in this case

aspenmayer 2y ago
The booby trap clause as you refer to it binds nations regardless of whether or not the target(s) of the booby traps are themselves nations. Just because you're fighting irregular forces and/or terrorists doesn't give a country license to ignore UN obligations regarding use of weapons. I can see why many may not care about that. I can also see that you do care about this topic and appreciate the discussion. I am glad we aren't using mustard gas today, like we did in World War I. America caught some flak for using shotguns versus Nazi Germany in trench warfare in World War II, which was apparently outlawed at the time. Did the ends justify the means? I don't really like that framing because it denies combatants dignity, whether or not we agree or disagree about whether or not a specific law of war should apply in a given circumstance. Laws of war such as these are not likely enforceable given the limited targeted use of the pagers, but that doesn't mean that laws weren't violated. Furthermore, it represents an escalation of sorts on the Israeli side. I guess I'm trying to reason about your position. Do you find that the pagers don't constitute booby traps, or that Israel isn't bound regardless of whether or not they are booby traps? Or do you find that due to the international non-state actor target of the pager strike, that it logically follows that Israel is not violating any applicable law or treaty because the target isn't themselves party to the same laws? Help me understand your view and position. > He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you. > Friedrich Nietzsche Per these links, Israel and Lebanon are bound to Amended Protocol II to my reading: https://disarmament.unoda.org/the-convention-on-certain-conventional-weapons/high-contracting-parties-and-signatories-ccw/ https://disarmament.unoda.org/the-convention-on-certain-conv... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protocol_on_Mines%2C_Booby-Traps_and_Other_Devices https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protocol_on_Mines%2C_Booby-Tra... (If you want to reply and find that the 'reply' button is missing, click the timestamp of this comment to reply directly.)
- rougka 2y ago
  I can sum up my position as this: 1. the original intent of the law was so further away from this scenario that it isn't really applicable in any form. You can see from the first clause that they envisioned a scenario where a soldier is hurt by a booby trapped flag being left in some base. Hence the fact this is part of the mine convention. 2. I am not convinced this actually applies in the legal sense of who signed what and whether these are armed forces at all. Generally intelligence agencies are not bound by international law and regularly do things such as use other armed forces uniforms which is illegal, or simply have non-uniformed paramilitary forces 3. The morale aspect: It is generally accepted among democratic nations that targeted assassinations against terror group members is legal. See US, UK, and a whole bunch of nations that were members of the Afghanistan, Iraq and anti-ISIS coalition. If Israel had went with that route, each of those 3000 houses bombed would lead to many more dead by the surrounding families, similarly to in Gaza. While in this scenario, most were incapacitated in a non-lethal way (although still horrifying, this is war after all). Making this much better than the alternative
  - aspenmayer 2y ago
    1. I would disagree. These aren't mines, as they aren't triggered by the target. They're similar to the booby trapped tobacco pipes mentioned in one of my links, which were triggered by the trapper. 2. Intelligence agencies don't get POW protections, so that point is not really relevant. Treaties bind you, even if your enemy is not similarly bound. 3. If the targeted assassinations with booby trapped pagers didn't have civilian casualties, I might agree, but in this case, I don't. I tend to agree with you that the outcome was about as good as could be expected, and likely much better than could be achieved with traditional munitions. However, the escalatory effect of using booby traps, legal usage/legal target or not, is not ideal.
    - rougka 2y ago
      1. Then we will have to disagree, for me it was quite obvious what scenario they had in heart when writing the convention. While the difference here would at least mean a court will need to decide this applies here, as this is not clear cut relevant in any way 2. And so do terrorist organizations. As this does not qualify as an international conflict this does not apply without the annex 3. The civilian casualties are absolutely minimal in proportion to the military usefulness much more than a classic attack. About the escalatory nature, this is purely my opinion but after 1 year of open conflict that left many refugees, Israel would have to attack eventually. Also when looking at this entire conflict as an Iran-Israel confrontation, this is merely a natural continuation

by rougka 2y ago

aspenmayer 2y ago

The booby trap clause as you refer to it binds nations regardless of whether or not the target(s) of the booby traps are themselves nations. Just because you're fighting irregular forces and/or terrorists doesn't give a country license to ignore UN obligations regarding use of weapons. I can see why many may not care about that. I can also see that you do care about this topic and appreciate the discussion. I am glad we aren't using mustard gas today, like we did in World War I. America caught some flak for using shotguns versus Nazi Germany in trench warfare in World War II, which was apparently outlawed at the time. Did the ends justify the means? I don't really like that framing because it denies combatants dignity, whether or not we agree or disagree about whether or not a specific law of war should apply in a given circumstance. Laws of war such as these are not likely enforceable given the limited targeted use of the pagers, but that doesn't mean that laws weren't violated. Furthermore, it represents an escalation of sorts on the Israeli side. I guess I'm trying to reason about your position. Do you find that the pagers don't constitute booby traps, or that Israel isn't bound regardless of whether or not they are booby traps? Or do you find that due to the international non-state actor target of the pager strike, that it logically follows that Israel is not violating any applicable law or treaty because the target isn't themselves party to the same laws? Help me understand your view and position. > He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you. > Friedrich Nietzsche Per these links, Israel and Lebanon are bound to Amended Protocol II to my reading: https://disarmament.unoda.org/the-convention-on-certain-conventional-weapons/high-contracting-parties-and-signatories-ccw/ https://disarmament.unoda.org/the-convention-on-certain-conv... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protocol_on_Mines%2C_Booby-Traps_and_Other_Devices https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protocol_on_Mines%2C_Booby-Tra... (If you want to reply and find that the 'reply' button is missing, click the timestamp of this comment to reply directly.)

rougka 2y ago
I can sum up my position as this: 1. the original intent of the law was so further away from this scenario that it isn't really applicable in any form. You can see from the first clause that they envisioned a scenario where a soldier is hurt by a booby trapped flag being left in some base. Hence the fact this is part of the mine convention. 2. I am not convinced this actually applies in the legal sense of who signed what and whether these are armed forces at all. Generally intelligence agencies are not bound by international law and regularly do things such as use other armed forces uniforms which is illegal, or simply have non-uniformed paramilitary forces 3. The morale aspect: It is generally accepted among democratic nations that targeted assassinations against terror group members is legal. See US, UK, and a whole bunch of nations that were members of the Afghanistan, Iraq and anti-ISIS coalition. If Israel had went with that route, each of those 3000 houses bombed would lead to many more dead by the surrounding families, similarly to in Gaza. While in this scenario, most were incapacitated in a non-lethal way (although still horrifying, this is war after all). Making this much better than the alternative
- aspenmayer 2y ago
  1. I would disagree. These aren't mines, as they aren't triggered by the target. They're similar to the booby trapped tobacco pipes mentioned in one of my links, which were triggered by the trapper. 2. Intelligence agencies don't get POW protections, so that point is not really relevant. Treaties bind you, even if your enemy is not similarly bound. 3. If the targeted assassinations with booby trapped pagers didn't have civilian casualties, I might agree, but in this case, I don't. I tend to agree with you that the outcome was about as good as could be expected, and likely much better than could be achieved with traditional munitions. However, the escalatory effect of using booby traps, legal usage/legal target or not, is not ideal.
  - rougka 2y ago
    1. Then we will have to disagree, for me it was quite obvious what scenario they had in heart when writing the convention. While the difference here would at least mean a court will need to decide this applies here, as this is not clear cut relevant in any way 2. And so do terrorist organizations. As this does not qualify as an international conflict this does not apply without the annex 3. The civilian casualties are absolutely minimal in proportion to the military usefulness much more than a classic attack. About the escalatory nature, this is purely my opinion but after 1 year of open conflict that left many refugees, Israel would have to attack eventually. Also when looking at this entire conflict as an Iran-Israel confrontation, this is merely a natural continuation