6 ms·

Not to mention subsidised parking spaces. Free and even paid street parking is highly subsidised by the city and by other tax payers. There's also the environme

by Happily2020 2y ago

Not to mention subsidised parking spaces. Free and even paid street parking is highly subsidised by the city and by other tax payers. There's also the environmental cost of not having that land be a park or nature and instead have it contribute to being an urban heat island with all its asphalt.

looofooo0 2y ago
Healthcare cost also decline, and people become less sick because you have to walk some amount to get to the train.
- piyuv 2y ago
  The air quality improving should also be a factor.
- shankr 2y ago
  Although you fall sick more often in winter when using public transportation.
  - ndsipa_pomu 2y ago
    Is that a rigorous statistical analysis or just your impression?
    - throw4950sh06 2y ago
      Some people actually try these things... And not writing an academic paper about it doesn't make it wrong.
      - ndsipa_pomu 2y ago
        Not writing an academic paper about it doesn't make it right either. This is the problem, when it's just hearsay, the rest of us have nothing to judge its accuracy with. When looking at something as complex as people's behaviour, then it's worth allowing for seasonal variations in public transport use (e.g. when it's raining people may decide to get the bus rather than walk). Could it be related to the length of their journeys and/or their net worth? (There's a strong correlation between health and wealth). How does it compare to a similar section of the population that drive or cycle instead?
        throw4950sh06 2y ago
        You can look into it yourself. This is a web forum, not university. I don't understand how are your questions going to answer anything anyways - it's not like the answer is going to be the same anywhere.
    - shankr 2y ago
      It was instrumental in spreading COVID[1]. Also found to be the case with other airborne diseases[2] [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8552583/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8552583/ [2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6280530/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6280530/
- finikytou 2y ago
  in Paris (and pretty sure that applies to pretty much any big western city, new york for instance is worse in a few of the criterias ill reference) subway increase stress, frequent delays(if you have 2-3 train as part of your commute you will experience it daily), pollution down under is high, virus/covid transmission is high, pickpockets are everywhere if not worse, bedbug, pee smell, junkies. Id take a car any day.
  - neither_color 2y ago
    This is much less of a problem in large Asian cities. They're only really stressful in rush hour crowds. But in places like NY the public seems much less interested in the initial policing, maintenance, and cultural attitude shifts that would be required to make it happen. Like, you could still have the artists, street performers, and other so-called charming quirks while still making sure the problematic passengers get the help they need. What's it going to take? You could even do a trial period, like one year of safe, clean metros and see if people want to go back to the way things are now.
    - PaulHoule 2y ago
      It is easy to say but not easy to do. Post Szasz and Reagan we’ve had the policy of deinstitutionalization of the mentally ill. Thus you have a lot of people with schizophrenia who have no insight into their condition who are very hard to manage. Even in a town where services are relatively available there are many people who take years to accept a diagnosis which can get them on disability and receiving permanent help. Probably the best we can do for these people is get them stabilized on an antipsychotic drug and then get them in the clinic every few months for a depot injection but even that is pretty hard.
      - bluGill 2y ago
        > deinstitutionalization of the mentally ill This dates back to at least JFK and probably farther back. The institutions of the 1950s were terrible for the mentally ill - putting them on the streets is a better answer than the abuse a lot of them suffered. Of course the Kennedy's had enough to treat their mentally ill family members to better institutions than the government mandated ones. If a reformed institution could treat the mentally ill better than the the streets is an open question - in theory it can, but human nature is all too often to abuse in that way and so you should question if any reform can stick. If you say yes then it is on you to verify. If you say no - we need a better answer than the street (I can't think of any - or at least not any that I don't have other objections to)
6510 2y ago
It has secretly become unrealistic to have cars in a city, we still do it but more out of tradition. You wouldn't build parks (tho that would be nice) 1 parked car, the road next to it and the second side walk take about as much space as an apartment and we stack those one on top of the other. Something like this is quite hilarious if you think about it. https://www.alamy.com/parking-in-the-courtyard-of-high-rise-buildings-in-summer-aerial-view-image471188550.html?imageid=82A0A647-2854-48C2-BBCF-B3D078C1A60E&p=360156&pn=1&searchId=c6035054e83ecebdd4aca582690447d4&searchtype=0 https://www.alamy.com/parking-in-the-courtyard-of-high-rise-... It reminds me of grazing cows having 80 times as much space as people in some parts of my country.
- Nullabillity 2y ago
  You don't have to build it like that. Where I live now, the parking lot is effectively the basement under the apartment buildings and playground. You'd barely interact with it unless you're driving.
  - 6510 2y ago
    Housing is getting so expensive that people share tiny apartments while still able to afford two cars. With that ratio you need 10 floors of parking for 10 floors of housing. I always thought it funny how popular elevators are for vertical travel. A monorail station in the basement or even a ski lift seems a lot less space consuming. If it means you can get a home 120m2 (1300 sq ft) in stead of 60m2 (650 sq ft) it seems worth considering.
  - consteval 2y ago
    Well when you put it like that it sounds very economical!
andrepd 2y ago
Absolutely. Next time you see a free parking spot mentally calculate the rent of ~10m² on that part of the city to understand how much of a subsidy that is. Then multiply by 50 parking spots in a street. Then think how many thousands there are all over the city...
- finikytou 2y ago
  do you have free parking? cities are making money out of parking spots. a lot of money. so much than one would say they have an incentive to reduce parking space to increase price and reduce expenses
  - PaulRobinson 2y ago
    Cities and councils should not be making decisions based on how to raise revenue. They should be making decisions based on how to improve quality of life for residents. Parking should exist where public transport is not a viable option. Ideally the work to make public transport an option should be prioritised over the work to making parking exist. Cities and councils can make money from public transport too, it'll work out OK revenue-wise, and quality of life improvements can be considerable.
    - eru 2y ago
      > Cities and councils should not be making decisions based on how to raise revenue. Why not? > They should be making decisions based on how to improve quality of life for residents. Residents can use money to purchase goods and services to improve their quality of life. > Parking should exist where public transport is not a viable option. And the market can provide parking at market-prices. (And, cities and councils can perhaps also offer parking at market prices on their properties.)
      - bratwurst3000 2y ago
        > Residents can use money to purchase goods and services to improve their quality of life. i live in a city with pollution problem. where can i buy this clean air to improve the quality of my life?
eru 2y ago
Yes, though all of that is more of an argument in favour of dropping car subsidies, than an argument in favour of more rail subsidies.

looofooo0 2y ago

Healthcare cost also decline, and people become less sick because you have to walk some amount to get to the train.

piyuv 2y ago
The air quality improving should also be a factor.
shankr 2y ago
Although you fall sick more often in winter when using public transportation.
- ndsipa_pomu 2y ago
  Is that a rigorous statistical analysis or just your impression?
  - throw4950sh06 2y ago
    Some people actually try these things... And not writing an academic paper about it doesn't make it wrong.
    - ndsipa_pomu 2y ago
      Not writing an academic paper about it doesn't make it right either. This is the problem, when it's just hearsay, the rest of us have nothing to judge its accuracy with. When looking at something as complex as people's behaviour, then it's worth allowing for seasonal variations in public transport use (e.g. when it's raining people may decide to get the bus rather than walk). Could it be related to the length of their journeys and/or their net worth? (There's a strong correlation between health and wealth). How does it compare to a similar section of the population that drive or cycle instead?
      - throw4950sh06 2y ago
        You can look into it yourself. This is a web forum, not university. I don't understand how are your questions going to answer anything anyways - it's not like the answer is going to be the same anywhere.
  - shankr 2y ago
    It was instrumental in spreading COVID[1]. Also found to be the case with other airborne diseases[2] [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8552583/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8552583/ [2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6280530/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6280530/
finikytou 2y ago
in Paris (and pretty sure that applies to pretty much any big western city, new york for instance is worse in a few of the criterias ill reference) subway increase stress, frequent delays(if you have 2-3 train as part of your commute you will experience it daily), pollution down under is high, virus/covid transmission is high, pickpockets are everywhere if not worse, bedbug, pee smell, junkies. Id take a car any day.
- neither_color 2y ago
  This is much less of a problem in large Asian cities. They're only really stressful in rush hour crowds. But in places like NY the public seems much less interested in the initial policing, maintenance, and cultural attitude shifts that would be required to make it happen. Like, you could still have the artists, street performers, and other so-called charming quirks while still making sure the problematic passengers get the help they need. What's it going to take? You could even do a trial period, like one year of safe, clean metros and see if people want to go back to the way things are now.
  - PaulHoule 2y ago
    It is easy to say but not easy to do. Post Szasz and Reagan we’ve had the policy of deinstitutionalization of the mentally ill. Thus you have a lot of people with schizophrenia who have no insight into their condition who are very hard to manage. Even in a town where services are relatively available there are many people who take years to accept a diagnosis which can get them on disability and receiving permanent help. Probably the best we can do for these people is get them stabilized on an antipsychotic drug and then get them in the clinic every few months for a depot injection but even that is pretty hard.
    - bluGill 2y ago
      > deinstitutionalization of the mentally ill This dates back to at least JFK and probably farther back. The institutions of the 1950s were terrible for the mentally ill - putting them on the streets is a better answer than the abuse a lot of them suffered. Of course the Kennedy's had enough to treat their mentally ill family members to better institutions than the government mandated ones. If a reformed institution could treat the mentally ill better than the the streets is an open question - in theory it can, but human nature is all too often to abuse in that way and so you should question if any reform can stick. If you say yes then it is on you to verify. If you say no - we need a better answer than the street (I can't think of any - or at least not any that I don't have other objections to)

6510 2y ago

It has secretly become unrealistic to have cars in a city, we still do it but more out of tradition. You wouldn't build parks (tho that would be nice) 1 parked car, the road next to it and the second side walk take about as much space as an apartment and we stack those one on top of the other. Something like this is quite hilarious if you think about it. https://www.alamy.com/parking-in-the-courtyard-of-high-rise-buildings-in-summer-aerial-view-image471188550.html?imageid=82A0A647-2854-48C2-BBCF-B3D078C1A60E&p=360156&pn=1&searchId=c6035054e83ecebdd4aca582690447d4&searchtype=0 https://www.alamy.com/parking-in-the-courtyard-of-high-rise-... It reminds me of grazing cows having 80 times as much space as people in some parts of my country.

Nullabillity 2y ago
You don't have to build it like that. Where I live now, the parking lot is effectively the basement under the apartment buildings and playground. You'd barely interact with it unless you're driving.
- 6510 2y ago
  Housing is getting so expensive that people share tiny apartments while still able to afford two cars. With that ratio you need 10 floors of parking for 10 floors of housing. I always thought it funny how popular elevators are for vertical travel. A monorail station in the basement or even a ski lift seems a lot less space consuming. If it means you can get a home 120m2 (1300 sq ft) in stead of 60m2 (650 sq ft) it seems worth considering.
- consteval 2y ago
  Well when you put it like that it sounds very economical!

andrepd 2y ago

Absolutely. Next time you see a free parking spot mentally calculate the rent of ~10m² on that part of the city to understand how much of a subsidy that is. Then multiply by 50 parking spots in a street. Then think how many thousands there are all over the city...

finikytou 2y ago
do you have free parking? cities are making money out of parking spots. a lot of money. so much than one would say they have an incentive to reduce parking space to increase price and reduce expenses
- PaulRobinson 2y ago
  Cities and councils should not be making decisions based on how to raise revenue. They should be making decisions based on how to improve quality of life for residents. Parking should exist where public transport is not a viable option. Ideally the work to make public transport an option should be prioritised over the work to making parking exist. Cities and councils can make money from public transport too, it'll work out OK revenue-wise, and quality of life improvements can be considerable.
  - eru 2y ago
    > Cities and councils should not be making decisions based on how to raise revenue. Why not? > They should be making decisions based on how to improve quality of life for residents. Residents can use money to purchase goods and services to improve their quality of life. > Parking should exist where public transport is not a viable option. And the market can provide parking at market-prices. (And, cities and councils can perhaps also offer parking at market prices on their properties.)
    - bratwurst3000 2y ago
      > Residents can use money to purchase goods and services to improve their quality of life. i live in a city with pollution problem. where can i buy this clean air to improve the quality of my life?

eru 2y ago

Yes, though all of that is more of an argument in favour of dropping car subsidies, than an argument in favour of more rail subsidies.