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You seem to be very intent on insisting that anyone can make a game engine (which I mostly agree with). But, it’s not easy, even when you use a pre-existing fra

by _gabe_ 2y ago

You seem to be very intent on insisting that anyone can make a game engine (which I mostly agree with). But, it’s not easy, even when you use a pre-existing framework like Raylib. I’ve used frameworks like Monogame, I’ve used bare metal C++ and OpenGL, I’ve used the HTML canvas and JavaScript, I’ve built physics engines and used physics engines like Box2D or Havok. What I’m trying to say is I’ve done a lot of game engine-y stuff at various levels of the stack. I’ve _also_ used Godot, Unity and Unreal. There’s a tremendous difference. I just started learning Godot a week ago and I already have the core game loop practically done in a new RPG. Sure I could’ve done the same thing using C++ and OpenGL (or Raylib or something), but I would be missing out on a lot of useful things that _just work_. Godot’s BBCode text labels are amazing and give my dialogue boxes a whole bunch of character out of the box. The tilemap editor allows me to just build my levels without having to build an editor first. The lighting system can add a ton of visual polish with very little effort on my part. I’ve also dabbled in VR games with Unreal. And I’ve tried making some simple 3D games in Unity. Is this all possible without those engines? Yea. Would I have been able to experiment with the kinds of tech I got to play with if I made it all myself from scratch? I doubt it (not because I couldn’t do it, I just don’t have the time). Another thing to consider is porting your game to different platforms! There’s a whole lot of variability in what kind of support you’ll get for that with something you made yourself or a framework like Raylib. Anyways, from someone who has experienced both sides of the coin, you’ll end up fighting with the engine either way ;) There’s nothing wrong with using a general purpose engine.

adamrezich 2y ago
Would you not say that learning how one could possibly make a game without using someone else's engine that does everything for you made you a better game developer, even if you end up choosing to use one?
- _gabe_ 2y ago
  That’s completely besides the point. I agree that working on an engine can be very fulfilling and round you out as a developer. But it’s not easy and I wouldn’t recommend that somebody who just wants to make a game go down that path. I’m pretty sure some of my favorite games like Hollow Knight would have never been made if they decided to just build the engine as well.
  - adamrezich 2y ago
    What is it specifically about Hollow Knight that makes you think it never would've been made without using someone else's engine? I didn't get too far into it myself but in terms of gameplay systems it seemed like a very standard 2D metroidvania platformer, except with a fantastic visual style. Compare and contrast Salt & Sanctuary, which was uses FNA (which is a library, not an engine).
    - _gabe_ 2y ago
      The fact that it’s a game that was developed by people that were self-proclaimed “non-coders”[0] using a plug n’ play game engine Stencyl (a no code engine) and then later switching to Unity. It seems to me the plug n’ play nature enabled them to gain traction with a prototype that led to the full fledged game. This one quote on page 2 from the developers really hammers home this point: > Those limitations aside, working in Stencyl has been fantastic. Ideas come together really easily and the tools are all intuitive. We definitely couldn't have come so far in such a short amount of time without it. [0]: https://community.stencyl.com/index.php?topic=36539.0 https://community.stencyl.com/index.php?topic=36539.0
    - jsnell 2y ago
      Because the people writing the game did not have infinite time and budget, and spent their resources on making the game rather than the engine. That allowed them to a) finish the game at all, b) make a game of bigger scope and higher quality. Maybe (just maybe!) they could have finished a game when rolling their own. But it would not have been the Hollow Knight we know. It's great that you're enthusiastic about writing your own engine. I'm kind of in the same boat: I'm opinionated on software engineering and architecture, and my opinions don't line up with any of the existing engines. So I roll my own. But it's not actually an efficient use of my time, and as a result I don't write as many games as I'd prefer to, and the projects often end up down-scoped from the original vision just to finish them. It's a suboptimal way to work, but it's the one I have to use since any time I try using an engine I give up in disgust and get nothing done. What's not so great is that you're ignoring the very obvious upsides of using an engine, pretending it's only downsides, and pushing your personal preference on other people as the obviously correct way to do things. Your bafflement on why anyone would use an engine is showing a distinct lack of empathy. Not everyone thinks like you, or has your priorities. You want to write a toolset and demonstrate your mastery of that toolset; some others just want to make a game. And you have no business telling them that their goal is invalid and they should instead copy your priorities.

by _gabe_ 2y ago

adamrezich 2y ago

Would you not say that learning how one could possibly make a game without using someone else's engine that does everything for you made you a better game developer, even if you end up choosing to use one?

_gabe_ 2y ago
That’s completely besides the point. I agree that working on an engine can be very fulfilling and round you out as a developer. But it’s not easy and I wouldn’t recommend that somebody who just wants to make a game go down that path. I’m pretty sure some of my favorite games like Hollow Knight would have never been made if they decided to just build the engine as well.
- adamrezich 2y ago
  What is it specifically about Hollow Knight that makes you think it never would've been made without using someone else's engine? I didn't get too far into it myself but in terms of gameplay systems it seemed like a very standard 2D metroidvania platformer, except with a fantastic visual style. Compare and contrast Salt & Sanctuary, which was uses FNA (which is a library, not an engine).
  - _gabe_ 2y ago
    The fact that it’s a game that was developed by people that were self-proclaimed “non-coders”[0] using a plug n’ play game engine Stencyl (a no code engine) and then later switching to Unity. It seems to me the plug n’ play nature enabled them to gain traction with a prototype that led to the full fledged game. This one quote on page 2 from the developers really hammers home this point: > Those limitations aside, working in Stencyl has been fantastic. Ideas come together really easily and the tools are all intuitive. We definitely couldn't have come so far in such a short amount of time without it. [0]: https://community.stencyl.com/index.php?topic=36539.0 https://community.stencyl.com/index.php?topic=36539.0
  - jsnell 2y ago
    Because the people writing the game did not have infinite time and budget, and spent their resources on making the game rather than the engine. That allowed them to a) finish the game at all, b) make a game of bigger scope and higher quality. Maybe (just maybe!) they could have finished a game when rolling their own. But it would not have been the Hollow Knight we know. It's great that you're enthusiastic about writing your own engine. I'm kind of in the same boat: I'm opinionated on software engineering and architecture, and my opinions don't line up with any of the existing engines. So I roll my own. But it's not actually an efficient use of my time, and as a result I don't write as many games as I'd prefer to, and the projects often end up down-scoped from the original vision just to finish them. It's a suboptimal way to work, but it's the one I have to use since any time I try using an engine I give up in disgust and get nothing done. What's not so great is that you're ignoring the very obvious upsides of using an engine, pretending it's only downsides, and pushing your personal preference on other people as the obviously correct way to do things. Your bafflement on why anyone would use an engine is showing a distinct lack of empathy. Not everyone thinks like you, or has your priorities. You want to write a toolset and demonstrate your mastery of that toolset; some others just want to make a game. And you have no business telling them that their goal is invalid and they should instead copy your priorities.