6 ms·

When has the EU ever been democratic? Brussels has lost, but ignored every referendum for the last 20 years.

by fdfgyu 2y ago

consp 2y ago
Remind me please what eu wide referendum was ignored?
- docdeek 2y ago
  All of them? None of them? To my knowledge there have been plenty of referendums regarding the EU over the last half century but there has not been a single EU-wide referendum. There’s a list here (pp.5-6) of plenty of them which clearly notes that some EU countries have not held referendums. https://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/IDAN/2022/729358/EPRS_IDA(2022)729358_EN.pdf https://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/IDAN/2022/7293... Perhaps the other commenter was refering to the French, Dutch, and Irish EU Constitution referendums that all failed. In the case of the two former members, they never went back to the people and found an alternate way to get what the EU wanted into practice. In the case of the Irish, they voted again until, it seems, they voted for the ‘right’ side of the issue.
  - timrichard 2y ago
    > Perhaps the other commenter was refering to the French, Dutch, and Irish EU Constitution referendums that all failed. In the case of the two former members, they never went back to the people and found an alternate way to get what the EU wanted into practice. In the case of the Irish, they voted again until, it seems, they voted for the ‘right’ side of the issue. And the playbook was almost followed in the UK following Brexit. For three years politicians and various interests called for a "confirmatory vote", or a "peoples' vote" (as if people didn't vote the first time round).
- fdfgyu 2y ago
  Who said EU wide? The rules are clear, changes in EU rules must be unanimous. Typically, governments agree to changes affecting their countries' constitutions and sovereignty w/out consulting voters (how democratic! /s). Occasionally a government will allow a vote. And when they lose, they ignore the vote.
generic92034 2y ago
That stance ("ever been democratic") is a bit too strong for my taste. There are definitely issues with the EU parliament having no rights to propose laws or the amount of indirection between voters and some powerful institutions. But calling the EU not being democratic is going too far, in my eyes. Especially considering the setup as a confederation of sovereign countries, so the comparison to individual countries' systems is problematic.
- ThalesX 2y ago
  > But calling the EU not being democratic is going too far I'm an EU citizen. I have minimal saying in who our commissioner is and what members of the cabinet get chosen. I have a vote which I give to whatever party. After that, the vote for commissioner is secret; I have no idea who voted for what. After that, the negociations for the cabinet are secret; I have no idea what the criteria are and what the plans are. I'm not putting us in the bucket of non-democracy just yet but I don't feel it's that far.
  - generic92034 2y ago
    So we are in complete agreement.
  - faggotbreath 2y ago
    [dead]
  - medstrom 2y ago
    Is this different from your own government?
    - ThalesX 2y ago
      Yes, in that we find out what we voted for after the vote instead of before.
  - buildfocus 2y ago
    Is this not similar to ministerial roles and civil servant positions in most governments? You don't vote for the commissioners directly, but your elected representative (leader of your government) does, and that's your path to express preferences & drive accountability. If you don't like the selection, take it up with them. In the UK for example, the people elect members of parliament as their representatives, but MPs choose their party leaders, and the governing party leadership chooses its ministers without any public consultation or debate. What's the difference?
hcfman 2y ago
Precisely. The Netherlands has this way of fighting organisated crime that they call an intervention. This is organised by groups of government organisations like the police, council etc. If they want to do illegal things they use weak civilian individuals, likely people they were able blackmail. There are no rules as to what an intervention can be and zero accountability. They will and have obstructed justice all the way to the courts, loosing evidence etc from the illegal activities their proxies have done. Welcome to the new world. Apparently Belgium and Germany now also use this approach.
raverbashing 2y ago
[flagged]

When has the EU ever been democratic? Brussels has lost, but ignored every referendum for the last 20 years.

by fdfgyu 2y ago

When has the EU ever been democratic? Brussels has lost, but ignored every referendum for the last 20 years.

consp 2y ago

Remind me please what eu wide referendum was ignored?

docdeek 2y ago
All of them? None of them? To my knowledge there have been plenty of referendums regarding the EU over the last half century but there has not been a single EU-wide referendum. There’s a list here (pp.5-6) of plenty of them which clearly notes that some EU countries have not held referendums. https://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/IDAN/2022/729358/EPRS_IDA(2022)729358_EN.pdf https://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/IDAN/2022/7293... Perhaps the other commenter was refering to the French, Dutch, and Irish EU Constitution referendums that all failed. In the case of the two former members, they never went back to the people and found an alternate way to get what the EU wanted into practice. In the case of the Irish, they voted again until, it seems, they voted for the ‘right’ side of the issue.
- timrichard 2y ago
  > Perhaps the other commenter was refering to the French, Dutch, and Irish EU Constitution referendums that all failed. In the case of the two former members, they never went back to the people and found an alternate way to get what the EU wanted into practice. In the case of the Irish, they voted again until, it seems, they voted for the ‘right’ side of the issue. And the playbook was almost followed in the UK following Brexit. For three years politicians and various interests called for a "confirmatory vote", or a "peoples' vote" (as if people didn't vote the first time round).
fdfgyu 2y ago
Who said EU wide? The rules are clear, changes in EU rules must be unanimous. Typically, governments agree to changes affecting their countries' constitutions and sovereignty w/out consulting voters (how democratic! /s). Occasionally a government will allow a vote. And when they lose, they ignore the vote.

generic92034 2y ago

That stance ("ever been democratic") is a bit too strong for my taste. There are definitely issues with the EU parliament having no rights to propose laws or the amount of indirection between voters and some powerful institutions. But calling the EU not being democratic is going too far, in my eyes. Especially considering the setup as a confederation of sovereign countries, so the comparison to individual countries' systems is problematic.

ThalesX 2y ago
> But calling the EU not being democratic is going too far I'm an EU citizen. I have minimal saying in who our commissioner is and what members of the cabinet get chosen. I have a vote which I give to whatever party. After that, the vote for commissioner is secret; I have no idea who voted for what. After that, the negociations for the cabinet are secret; I have no idea what the criteria are and what the plans are. I'm not putting us in the bucket of non-democracy just yet but I don't feel it's that far.
- generic92034 2y ago
  So we are in complete agreement.
- faggotbreath 2y ago
  [dead]
- medstrom 2y ago
  Is this different from your own government?
  - ThalesX 2y ago
    Yes, in that we find out what we voted for after the vote instead of before.
- buildfocus 2y ago
  Is this not similar to ministerial roles and civil servant positions in most governments? You don't vote for the commissioners directly, but your elected representative (leader of your government) does, and that's your path to express preferences & drive accountability. If you don't like the selection, take it up with them. In the UK for example, the people elect members of parliament as their representatives, but MPs choose their party leaders, and the governing party leadership chooses its ministers without any public consultation or debate. What's the difference?

hcfman 2y ago

Precisely. The Netherlands has this way of fighting organisated crime that they call an intervention. This is organised by groups of government organisations like the police, council etc. If they want to do illegal things they use weak civilian individuals, likely people they were able blackmail. There are no rules as to what an intervention can be and zero accountability. They will and have obstructed justice all the way to the courts, loosing evidence etc from the illegal activities their proxies have done. Welcome to the new world. Apparently Belgium and Germany now also use this approach.

raverbashing 2y ago

[flagged]