5 ms·

Penroses theories about cognition smell like bunk and I only got a physics undergraduate degree. I’m glad he has found things to do in his old age but there are

Penroses theories about cognition smell like bunk and I only got a physics undergraduate degree. I’m glad he has found things to do in his old age but there are not a lot of physics departments jumping to put those theories to the test. This isn’t a “both sides” issue, it’s two separate physicists and two separate theories about different areas of physics.

ricksunny 2y ago
> it’s two separate physicists and two separate theories about different areas of physics. They're both touching on consciousness. Wheeler's participatory universe (least several paras of the article) & Penrose's (& coauthor's) microtubules. Penrose was (just days ago) on Theory of Everything talking about whether consciousness affects observation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPH-SzWF46w&t=83s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPH-SzWF46w&t=83s (tl;dw: he doesn't think it does.) Later in the same video, he actually comes down pretty hard on the participatory universe, without naming Wheeler or using the word 'participatory' (at least post-editing): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPH-SzWF46w&t=287s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPH-SzWF46w&t=287s
- n4r9 2y ago
  In that video, Penrose explicitly claims that quantum mechanics "is wrong". He means that the equations of quantum mechanics are not sufficient to describe the universe. He thinks you need some additional mechanics to cause wave function collapse. Wheeler, on the other hand, does not claim that quantum mechanics is wrong or incomplete, but suggests an interpretation of the equations. So in my mind they are taking very different approaches. I watched the later part of the video you linked where Penrose describes the thought experiment with the planet without any conscious agents. He describes wave function collapse as an objective process that is "caused" by conscious measurement. Whereas my understanding of Wheeler's ideas is that wave function collapse is a subjective process.
  - ricksunny 2y ago
    My recollection of Penrose's quoting in that video is that he said 'Physics collapses the wavefunction' implying he believes it is not a consciousness phenomenon.
    - n4r9 2y ago
      No I agree. But in Penrose's thought experiment, he considers the consequences of theories in which consciousness causes an objective collapse.

ricksunny 2y ago

> it’s two separate physicists and two separate theories about different areas of physics. They're both touching on consciousness. Wheeler's participatory universe (least several paras of the article) & Penrose's (& coauthor's) microtubules. Penrose was (just days ago) on Theory of Everything talking about whether consciousness affects observation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPH-SzWF46w&t=83s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPH-SzWF46w&t=83s (tl;dw: he doesn't think it does.) Later in the same video, he actually comes down pretty hard on the participatory universe, without naming Wheeler or using the word 'participatory' (at least post-editing): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPH-SzWF46w&t=287s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPH-SzWF46w&t=287s

n4r9 2y ago
In that video, Penrose explicitly claims that quantum mechanics "is wrong". He means that the equations of quantum mechanics are not sufficient to describe the universe. He thinks you need some additional mechanics to cause wave function collapse. Wheeler, on the other hand, does not claim that quantum mechanics is wrong or incomplete, but suggests an interpretation of the equations. So in my mind they are taking very different approaches. I watched the later part of the video you linked where Penrose describes the thought experiment with the planet without any conscious agents. He describes wave function collapse as an objective process that is "caused" by conscious measurement. Whereas my understanding of Wheeler's ideas is that wave function collapse is a subjective process.
- ricksunny 2y ago
  My recollection of Penrose's quoting in that video is that he said 'Physics collapses the wavefunction' implying he believes it is not a consciousness phenomenon.
  - n4r9 2y ago
    No I agree. But in Penrose's thought experiment, he considers the consequences of theories in which consciousness causes an objective collapse.