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Spare the rod, spoil the child I'm from El Salvador and beatings are a regular thing for us. It's normal for us to start working at 12. Now that's the extreme,

Spare the rod, spoil the child I'm from El Salvador and beatings are a regular thing for us. It's normal for us to start working at 12. Now that's the extreme, but this whole don't hit your kids movement is an epidemic.

RedwoodCity 14y ago
It just takes one or two people to take the idea of physical punishment too far before people start calling for change. In the 1970's in the USA teachers were allowed to hit students. I would like to see a teacher try that now.
- tsotha 14y ago
  I went to school back then, and the teachers weren't allowed to hit students. They could send you to the principal for corporal punishment, but his options were strictly circumscribed. His biggest weapon, in fact, was the threat of a paddling. I can't say that's the way it was everywhere, but they didn't need to rely on that kind of thing - if you made too much trouble they would simply expel you, something I don't think happens these days.
  - jpxxx 14y ago
    My parents were both in schools where they were physically beat, their fellow students were physically beat, and physical violence was always on the table as a response to student behavior. Their resentment (and the feeling of betrayal by their parents who condoned this behavior) lives on to this day.
    - Jtsummers 14y ago
      In the US? What part?
      - jpxxx 14y ago
        Missouri, circa 50's, catholic school.
        Jtsummers 14y ago
        So yeah, I think your parent post was talking about public schools. I won't argue that physical punishment (and abuse in some places) was absent from Catholic schools, especially at that time. Missouri also seems to be home to much more conservative Catholics than I'm used to seeing in other parts of the country which may relate to why the teachers/administration behaved that way.
  - will_work4tears 14y ago
    This is my experience. Always the principal. In fact I got in a spot of trouble in High School in 93-94 and was threatened with a paddle, so it isn't like this practice is ancient.
- drivebyacct2 14y ago
  Yes, let's give up the idea of civilization. It's just much easier to inflict violence as a means of discipline and control. That doesn't have any long term psychological or behavioral impact. Hey kids, if you don't like what someone's doing, use violence. Wonder why the world's nations' military policies are the way they are?
- gnaritas 14y ago
  If by physical punishment you mean spanking, it's all too far. You don't need to hit your kids, ever. The ends do not justify the means.
  - chad_oliver 14y ago
    I don't agree. I recognize that this is a difficult and controversial issue, but perhaps you would allow me to present a contrary opinion. (Also, understand that this is a general response, not a response targeted only at gnaritas). A few years ago, the New Zealand legislature passed a law that effectively made spanking a punishable offense(^), which generated a lot of discussion about the topic. About two-thirds of everyone I talked to (classmates, etc) had be spanked as a child, and of those people, I never met anyone who considered it a bad thing or traumatic in any way. In fact, everyone recognized that they had only been spanked because they were misbehaving, and that they had 'earned' the punishment. Let me emphasise that: I have not talked to anyone who has been spanked, and who thought it was traumatic or equivalent to violence in any way. From this, I suspect that most people who object to spanking have either never been spanked (and assume it would be tramatic), or have parents who thought 'discipline' was an acceptable excuse for abuse. Please understand that I am not defending any parent who abuses their child. Their actions are horrid and without excuse. Instead, my point is merely that spanking, done right, is not at all equivalent with child abuse. So what makes a 'good' spank? It should be short, sharp, and clearly associated with the crime, not the person. By short and sharp, I mean that it should hurt but I should not leave any long term effects. There should only be a single strike, the pain should not last longer than 10 seconds, and if there is a bruise then the parent has seriously stuffed up. The purpose is not to inflict pain on the child, but rather to clearly and unambiguously tell the child that certain actions are not acceptable. A baby should never be smacked, because they would not be able to understand the causality, and I would expect that once a child is over the age of 5 or 6, a verbal rebuke or simple smack on the hand should be sufficient. (Note that the smack on the hand would not be designed to cause pain, but rather to serve as a strong rebuke.) The smack should be clearly associated with the crime, not the person. When my mother smacked me, she would call me into the bedroom, explain what the crime was, smack me once, then hold me as I cried. Also, she always told me that she still loved me. Gnaritas: you say that the end does not justify the means. I'm not sure I agree with that. If, by being disciplined while I am a young child, I can learn to behave as a civilized member of the human race, I think this is a very good end that does justify the means. I suspect that the only people who can discipline themselves without any external discomfort (whether that's physical pain, boredom from being given a detention, or embarrassment from a boss's rebuke) are those who have been appropriately disciplined when they were young. Certainly, parents should move to the milder forms of punishment as soon as a child will respond to them. But while a child is young (3-5ish), a short sharp smack is an effective tool that doesn't need to be abusive. I recognize that some people will read this and still thing smacking is horrid. That's okay; you're certainly allowed to form your own opinion. However, please do not make the mistake of assuming that smacking must be abusive or violent, or even that the children themselves resent it. I know I never did. I disliked the pain, but I knew that there was a very good was to avoid a smack -- stop being mean to others around me. ------ ^ The purpose of the bill was only to remove a legal defense from those who were 'obviously' Bad Parents, but the ambiguity about what constitutes a Bad Parent made it very controversial.
jaggederest 14y ago
You know, there are ways to enforce discipline that don't require abuse.
- angersock 14y ago
  There certainly are. However, for certain ages and situations, nothing gets the point across quite as succinctly or unambiguously as a sharp thwack or spanking. I wouldn't, however, consider that as discipline per se--that is something that takes a larger, longer-term sort of environment and character building than fast "don't do that" punishment.
  - gnaritas 14y ago
    That is bad reasoning. Lots of things that you shouldn't do are effective, that doesn't make them any less wrong. That something works does not make it ok. The ends do not justify the means. It is no less wrong to hit your kid than to hit your spouse.
    - randallsquared 14y ago
      That something works does not make it ok. The ends do not justify the means. Depends on whether you're consequentialist or deontologicalist, I guess. For a consequentialist, nothing can make something okay other than that it works, and ends are the only thing that can justify any means. :)
    - larrys 14y ago
      "It is no less wrong to hit your kid than to hit your spouse." Presumably a spouse has more intelligence, maturity, and common sense than a child and is a peer (equal) that you can speak to and don't have to resort to "spanking" or much worse.
      - gnaritas 14y ago
        A person who can't outsmart a child has no business raising one. Words work just as effectively on children when applied consistently.
rrggrr 14y ago
Hitting your kids is parenting for amateurs or dummies. Anytime I catch myself with the urge to hit I remind myself I'm a lot smarter than those little shits (whom I love immensely) and its just a matter of calmly reminding them of their incentives, both negative and positive. The same holds true for yelling. I find that having them look in my eyes and speaking very quietly and calmly accomplishes a lot more. YMMV.
- kaybe 14y ago
  As kids we learned from that that resorting to violence is an instant loss of the fight, since even the adult would admit it. Not the worst lesson to teach, I believe.
- ekianjo 14y ago
  Kids better take their hits from their own family first. They get used to the violence in society later this way, and get stronger through the process. I'd like to see you vindicate your view that adults raised without "physical" education end up being better adults. The trends in society certainly don't seem to indicate your are right. As long as it's not abusive, disproportionate, and done in the proper circumstances and for the right reasons, there's nothing wrong with that. Please note I'm not advocating beating up your child for no reason whatsoever. It should be the last resort to educate. But just like the experience of fire is necessary to fear it, the experience of authority through a variety of means has value.
- larrys 14y ago
  "Hitting your kids is parenting for amateurs or dummies." That's very absolute a statement. "matter of calmly reminding them of their incentives, both negative and positive." As you said YMMV. Children are different from not only different families but within the same family. Punishment that works with one is pointless with another.
- rrggrr 14y ago
  @ekianjo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_Ycw0d_Uow http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_Ycw0d_Uow metaphorically the best response to your comment on multiple levels. @larrys Make a list of your kid's 5 favorite things. Make hitting them the sixth option. Give them authority to choose between the bad behavior or losing the items sequentially. With most kids by the time you get to item three you have compliance. No hitting required. IMHO the key is letting them choose among consequences or to pursue the behavior. Gives them independence and boundries at the same time.
artsrc 14y ago
> this whole don't hit your kids movement is an epidemic I think it is a part of the "pay attention to science" epidemic, like stopping smoking, and taking lead out of petrol.
DannoHung 14y ago
I think your kids should hit you until you can't hit them. Pig fucker.

RedwoodCity 14y ago

It just takes one or two people to take the idea of physical punishment too far before people start calling for change. In the 1970's in the USA teachers were allowed to hit students. I would like to see a teacher try that now.

tsotha 14y ago
I went to school back then, and the teachers weren't allowed to hit students. They could send you to the principal for corporal punishment, but his options were strictly circumscribed. His biggest weapon, in fact, was the threat of a paddling. I can't say that's the way it was everywhere, but they didn't need to rely on that kind of thing - if you made too much trouble they would simply expel you, something I don't think happens these days.
- jpxxx 14y ago
  My parents were both in schools where they were physically beat, their fellow students were physically beat, and physical violence was always on the table as a response to student behavior. Their resentment (and the feeling of betrayal by their parents who condoned this behavior) lives on to this day.
  - Jtsummers 14y ago
    In the US? What part?
    - jpxxx 14y ago
      Missouri, circa 50's, catholic school.
      - Jtsummers 14y ago
        So yeah, I think your parent post was talking about public schools. I won't argue that physical punishment (and abuse in some places) was absent from Catholic schools, especially at that time. Missouri also seems to be home to much more conservative Catholics than I'm used to seeing in other parts of the country which may relate to why the teachers/administration behaved that way.
- will_work4tears 14y ago
  This is my experience. Always the principal. In fact I got in a spot of trouble in High School in 93-94 and was threatened with a paddle, so it isn't like this practice is ancient.
drivebyacct2 14y ago
Yes, let's give up the idea of civilization. It's just much easier to inflict violence as a means of discipline and control. That doesn't have any long term psychological or behavioral impact. Hey kids, if you don't like what someone's doing, use violence. Wonder why the world's nations' military policies are the way they are?
gnaritas 14y ago
If by physical punishment you mean spanking, it's all too far. You don't need to hit your kids, ever. The ends do not justify the means.
- chad_oliver 14y ago
  I don't agree. I recognize that this is a difficult and controversial issue, but perhaps you would allow me to present a contrary opinion. (Also, understand that this is a general response, not a response targeted only at gnaritas). A few years ago, the New Zealand legislature passed a law that effectively made spanking a punishable offense(^), which generated a lot of discussion about the topic. About two-thirds of everyone I talked to (classmates, etc) had be spanked as a child, and of those people, I never met anyone who considered it a bad thing or traumatic in any way. In fact, everyone recognized that they had only been spanked because they were misbehaving, and that they had 'earned' the punishment. Let me emphasise that: I have not talked to anyone who has been spanked, and who thought it was traumatic or equivalent to violence in any way. From this, I suspect that most people who object to spanking have either never been spanked (and assume it would be tramatic), or have parents who thought 'discipline' was an acceptable excuse for abuse. Please understand that I am not defending any parent who abuses their child. Their actions are horrid and without excuse. Instead, my point is merely that spanking, done right, is not at all equivalent with child abuse. So what makes a 'good' spank? It should be short, sharp, and clearly associated with the crime, not the person. By short and sharp, I mean that it should hurt but I should not leave any long term effects. There should only be a single strike, the pain should not last longer than 10 seconds, and if there is a bruise then the parent has seriously stuffed up. The purpose is not to inflict pain on the child, but rather to clearly and unambiguously tell the child that certain actions are not acceptable. A baby should never be smacked, because they would not be able to understand the causality, and I would expect that once a child is over the age of 5 or 6, a verbal rebuke or simple smack on the hand should be sufficient. (Note that the smack on the hand would not be designed to cause pain, but rather to serve as a strong rebuke.) The smack should be clearly associated with the crime, not the person. When my mother smacked me, she would call me into the bedroom, explain what the crime was, smack me once, then hold me as I cried. Also, she always told me that she still loved me. Gnaritas: you say that the end does not justify the means. I'm not sure I agree with that. If, by being disciplined while I am a young child, I can learn to behave as a civilized member of the human race, I think this is a very good end that does justify the means. I suspect that the only people who can discipline themselves without any external discomfort (whether that's physical pain, boredom from being given a detention, or embarrassment from a boss's rebuke) are those who have been appropriately disciplined when they were young. Certainly, parents should move to the milder forms of punishment as soon as a child will respond to them. But while a child is young (3-5ish), a short sharp smack is an effective tool that doesn't need to be abusive. I recognize that some people will read this and still thing smacking is horrid. That's okay; you're certainly allowed to form your own opinion. However, please do not make the mistake of assuming that smacking must be abusive or violent, or even that the children themselves resent it. I know I never did. I disliked the pain, but I knew that there was a very good was to avoid a smack -- stop being mean to others around me. ------ ^ The purpose of the bill was only to remove a legal defense from those who were 'obviously' Bad Parents, but the ambiguity about what constitutes a Bad Parent made it very controversial.

jaggederest 14y ago

You know, there are ways to enforce discipline that don't require abuse.

angersock 14y ago
There certainly are. However, for certain ages and situations, nothing gets the point across quite as succinctly or unambiguously as a sharp thwack or spanking. I wouldn't, however, consider that as discipline per se--that is something that takes a larger, longer-term sort of environment and character building than fast "don't do that" punishment.
- gnaritas 14y ago
  That is bad reasoning. Lots of things that you shouldn't do are effective, that doesn't make them any less wrong. That something works does not make it ok. The ends do not justify the means. It is no less wrong to hit your kid than to hit your spouse.
  - randallsquared 14y ago
    That something works does not make it ok. The ends do not justify the means. Depends on whether you're consequentialist or deontologicalist, I guess. For a consequentialist, nothing can make something okay other than that it works, and ends are the only thing that can justify any means. :)
  - larrys 14y ago
    "It is no less wrong to hit your kid than to hit your spouse." Presumably a spouse has more intelligence, maturity, and common sense than a child and is a peer (equal) that you can speak to and don't have to resort to "spanking" or much worse.
    - gnaritas 14y ago
      A person who can't outsmart a child has no business raising one. Words work just as effectively on children when applied consistently.

rrggrr 14y ago

Hitting your kids is parenting for amateurs or dummies. Anytime I catch myself with the urge to hit I remind myself I'm a lot smarter than those little shits (whom I love immensely) and its just a matter of calmly reminding them of their incentives, both negative and positive. The same holds true for yelling. I find that having them look in my eyes and speaking very quietly and calmly accomplishes a lot more. YMMV.

kaybe 14y ago
As kids we learned from that that resorting to violence is an instant loss of the fight, since even the adult would admit it. Not the worst lesson to teach, I believe.
ekianjo 14y ago
Kids better take their hits from their own family first. They get used to the violence in society later this way, and get stronger through the process. I'd like to see you vindicate your view that adults raised without "physical" education end up being better adults. The trends in society certainly don't seem to indicate your are right. As long as it's not abusive, disproportionate, and done in the proper circumstances and for the right reasons, there's nothing wrong with that. Please note I'm not advocating beating up your child for no reason whatsoever. It should be the last resort to educate. But just like the experience of fire is necessary to fear it, the experience of authority through a variety of means has value.
larrys 14y ago
"Hitting your kids is parenting for amateurs or dummies." That's very absolute a statement. "matter of calmly reminding them of their incentives, both negative and positive." As you said YMMV. Children are different from not only different families but within the same family. Punishment that works with one is pointless with another.
rrggrr 14y ago
@ekianjo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_Ycw0d_Uow http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_Ycw0d_Uow metaphorically the best response to your comment on multiple levels. @larrys Make a list of your kid's 5 favorite things. Make hitting them the sixth option. Give them authority to choose between the bad behavior or losing the items sequentially. With most kids by the time you get to item three you have compliance. No hitting required. IMHO the key is letting them choose among consequences or to pursue the behavior. Gives them independence and boundries at the same time.

artsrc 14y ago

> this whole don't hit your kids movement is an epidemic I think it is a part of the "pay attention to science" epidemic, like stopping smoking, and taking lead out of petrol.

DannoHung 14y ago

I think your kids should hit you until you can't hit them. Pig fucker.