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> Noisy and fuel-inefficient (9 mpg), the Grummans are costly to maintain. > Environmentalists were outraged when DeJoy announced that 90% of the next-gen vehi

by non- 2y ago

> Noisy and fuel-inefficient (9 mpg), the Grummans are costly to maintain. > Environmentalists were outraged when DeJoy announced that 90% of the next-gen vehicles in the first order would be gas-powered. I was gonna say they environmentalists were wrong for this, if the new trucks get significantly better mpg performance that's still a big win. But apparently with the AC running the new trucks still only get 9mpg.[1][2] [1] https://earthjustice.org/press/2022/message-delivered-usps-charts-a-course-for-an-electric-mail-truck-fleet#:~:text=In%202021%2C%20the%20Postal%20Service,with%20the%20air%20conditioning%20on https://earthjustice.org/press/2022/message-delivered-usps-c.... [2] https://arstechnica.com/cars/2022/02/the-epa-and-white-house-take-fire-at-inefficient-new-mail-trucks/ https://arstechnica.com/cars/2022/02/the-epa-and-white-house...

dgfitz 2y ago
I can’t quickly find the mileage with the AC not running. More to the point, it is mostly a myth that running the AC uses a significant amount of fuel. The compressor is usually driven by the serpentine belt, and adding the clutch plate for the AC into that system does not add significant drag. A little, yes.
- anamexis 2y ago
  I would assume it's not the clutch plate that adds significant drag, but the AC compressor itself.
  - dgfitz 2y ago
    Yeah I could have phrased that better. The clutch plate engaging the compressor would have been more specific, I assumed it was implied. Apologies.
- FateOfNations 2y ago
  It can have some added effects for more modern vehicles. For example, if the AC is running in my car, the engine auto start/stop is disabled.
- mrguyorama 2y ago
  > it is mostly a myth that running the AC uses a significant amount of fuel What? Modern car AC compressors use about 1 HP (.7kW) of power, with a duty cycle highly dependent on temperature but if you break the seal periodically, like by opening the window to put mail in a box, it will be running 100% of the time even on an 80 degree day. For a hatchback at 70mph that's up to 10% of your energy usage. It's much harder to quantify for stop and go traffic because you have a bimodal situation of either zero HP generation or like 50 HP to accelerate in slow city traffic, but all ICE vehicles use more energy (have less economy) in city driving than highway driving, so on average it's using a higher percentage of your energy consumption in city driving. So turning on the AC on a hot day will reduce your economy car's mileage from 33 to 30, your truck's mileage from 12 to 10.8, and your Prius from 48 to 44 and worse for city driving. The numbers they claim in the above studies suggest they are using a higher capacity compressor to deal with the air volume constantly being opened to the outside.
  - dgfitz 2y ago
    What do you mean “what?” You ignored a word: significant
wnevets 2y ago
> Oshkosh's proposed vehicle will only average 8.6 mpg (27.35 L/100 km) according to the EPA, a barely noticeable improvement on the current Grumman-made LLV trucks, which average 8.2 mpg (28.68 L/100 km). Such a wasted opportunity
- MBCook 2y ago
  It’s a really hard task to make an efficient gas vehicle that stops and starts constantly. They’re just really bad at it. Sure you can make it a full hybrid but then you’re like 80% of the way there to a battery vehicle anyway. Also note that while the new one isn’t that much better it is providing air-conditioning. And the whole truck looks bigger so I suspect it weighs more. So the engine is doing more work than in the LLV.
  - ProfessorLayton 2y ago
    >Sure you can make it a full hybrid but then you’re like 80% of the way there to a battery vehicle anyway. This sounds like a good thing? Currently the most expensive component of electric vehicles are their batteries, so hybrids seem optimal. Hybrids excel at the exact use cases mail trucks have, so it seems a bit baffling they didn't go with that form of electrification. Toyota has proven maintenance and reliability aren't an issue with hybrid tech.
    - MBCook 2y ago
      Full hybrid has the downsides of electric (electric stuff to be serviced and weight/costs associated) and the downsides of gas (emissions, complexity of maintenance + engine, weight/cost of engine). These are government fleet vehicles being used for lots of miles every day. They're going to use these for 20+ years. If the up front cost is a little higher but it has a big payoff, it's totally worth it. The calculus is different from an individual's car. I still don't think it's worth it there now that electric has gotten so much cheaper, but that's a personal decision. > Hybrids excel at the exact use cases mail trucks have Compared to gas, yes. But the thing is electric cards excel even more. > Toyota has proven maintenance and reliability aren't an issue with hybrid tech. They proved it works reliably. But it's still far more complicated than an EV drivetrain with WAY WAY more high tolerance parts that wear. It's never going to be cheaper in maintenance.
ortusdux 2y ago
Here is the original environmental impact study from USPS - https://uspsngdveis.com/documents/USPS%20NGDV%20Draft%20EIS.pdf https://uspsngdveis.com/documents/USPS%20NGDV%20Draft%20EIS.... "14.7 miles per gallon (mpg) (without air conditioning) 8.6 mpg (with air conditioning)" The same document estimates off the shelf commercial right hand drive vehicles averaging 6.3 mpg if used fleet-wide.
- jdashg 2y ago
  Same MPG but now with AC is a huge win!
  - ortusdux 2y ago
    I'd like to see the ratio of hours with AC on vs off fleet-wide after the first year. From a 2019 IEA report: "Estimates from the literature reveal that around 6% of the annual global energy consumed by cars is used for MAC(mobile air conditioning), varying by country between about 3% and 20% depending on climate, driving patterns and traffic congestion. It can peak at over 40% in warm climates and congested traffic. This equates to around 1.2 Mboe/d consumed by MAC units in cars alone, with other road vehicles adding another 0.6 Mboe/d. For electric vehicles, MAC can reduce driving range by up to 50% on hot and humid days." https://www.iea.org/reports/cooling-on-the-move https://www.iea.org/reports/cooling-on-the-move
- sofixa 2y ago
  > "14.7 miles per gallon (mpg) (without air conditioning) 8.6 mpg (with air conditioning)" Both of those are absolutely embarrassing, did they use a 1950s Soviet tank engine? According to a quick Google search, a Ford Transit (bigger sized but not optimised for post delivery van) gets 33-46 mpg depending on the engine. Yeah, a post vehicle will start/stop much more, but that's where start/stop tech, and maybe even hybrid come in.
  - adgjlsfhk1 2y ago
    An open door will kill your mileage. USPS vans are designed for an incredibly specific role.
jmclnx 2y ago
> Environmentalists were outraged when DeJoy announced that 90% of the next-gen vehicles in the first order would be gas-powered. As they should be. Most of my family are mail carriers and as a kid I rode with them a few times for the day. Electric Vehicles would have been perfect for this work, but DeJoy probably was lobbied (in Europe that is called bribed) and bowed to the fossil fuel industry. This is from someone who believes EVs are only really viable for local errand running (right now).
- MBCook 2y ago
  Even ignoring lobbying, it's his party's (and the president at the time's) very outspoken position that EVs are some green nut's pipe dream being shoved down their throats. It likely would have been extremely bad for him personally politically to do what ended up happening on his own, as opposed to after pressure from congress and lawsuits.
- ClassyJacket 2y ago
  How can you possibly believe that? The first weekend I had my model 3 I drove it across two states, since that's where I bought it. It's got every bit of utility my previous ICE car had.

by non- 2y ago

dgfitz 2y ago

I can’t quickly find the mileage with the AC not running. More to the point, it is mostly a myth that running the AC uses a significant amount of fuel. The compressor is usually driven by the serpentine belt, and adding the clutch plate for the AC into that system does not add significant drag. A little, yes.

anamexis 2y ago
I would assume it's not the clutch plate that adds significant drag, but the AC compressor itself.
- dgfitz 2y ago
  Yeah I could have phrased that better. The clutch plate engaging the compressor would have been more specific, I assumed it was implied. Apologies.
FateOfNations 2y ago
It can have some added effects for more modern vehicles. For example, if the AC is running in my car, the engine auto start/stop is disabled.
mrguyorama 2y ago
> it is mostly a myth that running the AC uses a significant amount of fuel What? Modern car AC compressors use about 1 HP (.7kW) of power, with a duty cycle highly dependent on temperature but if you break the seal periodically, like by opening the window to put mail in a box, it will be running 100% of the time even on an 80 degree day. For a hatchback at 70mph that's up to 10% of your energy usage. It's much harder to quantify for stop and go traffic because you have a bimodal situation of either zero HP generation or like 50 HP to accelerate in slow city traffic, but all ICE vehicles use more energy (have less economy) in city driving than highway driving, so on average it's using a higher percentage of your energy consumption in city driving. So turning on the AC on a hot day will reduce your economy car's mileage from 33 to 30, your truck's mileage from 12 to 10.8, and your Prius from 48 to 44 and worse for city driving. The numbers they claim in the above studies suggest they are using a higher capacity compressor to deal with the air volume constantly being opened to the outside.
- dgfitz 2y ago
  What do you mean “what?” You ignored a word: significant

wnevets 2y ago

> Oshkosh's proposed vehicle will only average 8.6 mpg (27.35 L/100 km) according to the EPA, a barely noticeable improvement on the current Grumman-made LLV trucks, which average 8.2 mpg (28.68 L/100 km). Such a wasted opportunity

MBCook 2y ago
It’s a really hard task to make an efficient gas vehicle that stops and starts constantly. They’re just really bad at it. Sure you can make it a full hybrid but then you’re like 80% of the way there to a battery vehicle anyway. Also note that while the new one isn’t that much better it is providing air-conditioning. And the whole truck looks bigger so I suspect it weighs more. So the engine is doing more work than in the LLV.
- ProfessorLayton 2y ago
  >Sure you can make it a full hybrid but then you’re like 80% of the way there to a battery vehicle anyway. This sounds like a good thing? Currently the most expensive component of electric vehicles are their batteries, so hybrids seem optimal. Hybrids excel at the exact use cases mail trucks have, so it seems a bit baffling they didn't go with that form of electrification. Toyota has proven maintenance and reliability aren't an issue with hybrid tech.
  - MBCook 2y ago
    Full hybrid has the downsides of electric (electric stuff to be serviced and weight/costs associated) and the downsides of gas (emissions, complexity of maintenance + engine, weight/cost of engine). These are government fleet vehicles being used for lots of miles every day. They're going to use these for 20+ years. If the up front cost is a little higher but it has a big payoff, it's totally worth it. The calculus is different from an individual's car. I still don't think it's worth it there now that electric has gotten so much cheaper, but that's a personal decision. > Hybrids excel at the exact use cases mail trucks have Compared to gas, yes. But the thing is electric cards excel even more. > Toyota has proven maintenance and reliability aren't an issue with hybrid tech. They proved it works reliably. But it's still far more complicated than an EV drivetrain with WAY WAY more high tolerance parts that wear. It's never going to be cheaper in maintenance.

ortusdux 2y ago

Here is the original environmental impact study from USPS - https://uspsngdveis.com/documents/USPS%20NGDV%20Draft%20EIS.pdf https://uspsngdveis.com/documents/USPS%20NGDV%20Draft%20EIS.... "14.7 miles per gallon (mpg) (without air conditioning) 8.6 mpg (with air conditioning)" The same document estimates off the shelf commercial right hand drive vehicles averaging 6.3 mpg if used fleet-wide.

jdashg 2y ago
Same MPG but now with AC is a huge win!
- ortusdux 2y ago
  I'd like to see the ratio of hours with AC on vs off fleet-wide after the first year. From a 2019 IEA report: "Estimates from the literature reveal that around 6% of the annual global energy consumed by cars is used for MAC(mobile air conditioning), varying by country between about 3% and 20% depending on climate, driving patterns and traffic congestion. It can peak at over 40% in warm climates and congested traffic. This equates to around 1.2 Mboe/d consumed by MAC units in cars alone, with other road vehicles adding another 0.6 Mboe/d. For electric vehicles, MAC can reduce driving range by up to 50% on hot and humid days." https://www.iea.org/reports/cooling-on-the-move https://www.iea.org/reports/cooling-on-the-move
sofixa 2y ago
> "14.7 miles per gallon (mpg) (without air conditioning) 8.6 mpg (with air conditioning)" Both of those are absolutely embarrassing, did they use a 1950s Soviet tank engine? According to a quick Google search, a Ford Transit (bigger sized but not optimised for post delivery van) gets 33-46 mpg depending on the engine. Yeah, a post vehicle will start/stop much more, but that's where start/stop tech, and maybe even hybrid come in.
- adgjlsfhk1 2y ago
  An open door will kill your mileage. USPS vans are designed for an incredibly specific role.

jmclnx 2y ago

> Environmentalists were outraged when DeJoy announced that 90% of the next-gen vehicles in the first order would be gas-powered. As they should be. Most of my family are mail carriers and as a kid I rode with them a few times for the day. Electric Vehicles would have been perfect for this work, but DeJoy probably was lobbied (in Europe that is called bribed) and bowed to the fossil fuel industry. This is from someone who believes EVs are only really viable for local errand running (right now).

MBCook 2y ago
Even ignoring lobbying, it's his party's (and the president at the time's) very outspoken position that EVs are some green nut's pipe dream being shoved down their throats. It likely would have been extremely bad for him personally politically to do what ended up happening on his own, as opposed to after pressure from congress and lawsuits.
ClassyJacket 2y ago
How can you possibly believe that? The first weekend I had my model 3 I drove it across two states, since that's where I bought it. It's got every bit of utility my previous ICE car had.