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I'm a fan, but I wouldn't really call his stuff games. More like art that uses game tropes as a tool of expression.
by wly_cdgr 2y ago
I'm a fan, but I wouldn't really call his stuff games. More like art that uses game tropes as a tool of expression.
- netdevnet 2y agoWhat makes a game a game though? Do you necessarily need action and damage points?
- YurgenJurgensen 2y agoThat’s easy: At least one of the following: A failure state, a success state or a score.
- dpig_ 2y agoHelp me out here, I'm blanking on Minecraft's failure state, success state and scoring system?
- okasaki 2y agoThe failure state would be 0 health?
- _aavaa_ 2y agoOnly if you play hardcore mode, otherwise you respawn.
- SalientBlue 2y agoThat's still a failure state. A failure state doesn't need to permanently end the game, just be something you try to avoid.
- _aavaa_ 2y agoHard disagree. That's stretching the definition of "failure state" to mean "anything negative". By this logic getting hit is a failure state, taking fall damage is a failure state, another player scoring points is a failure state, not actively getting points is a failure state.
- SalientBlue 2y agoOne could argue these are minor failure states, but ok, let's change it to anything that loses some amount of progress. Dying in non-hardcore Minecraft is a failure state because whatever you were trying to do was cut short, whether exploring an area, gathering resources, etc. If you restrict failure states to only mean things that end the game, then games like Dark Souls do not have any failure states, since in Dark Souls you always respawn when you die. Most other modern single player games would also not have any failure states, since they also let you respawn as often as you like.
- YurgenJurgensen 2y agoYou are aware that I said ‘at least one’, right? Although Minecraft has all three. It has a scoring system literally named ‘score’, Hardcore mode ends if you die, and killing the Ender Dragon rolls the credits.
- _aavaa_ 2y agoNone of those were present when Minecraft was first released to the public and wouldn’t be present for years.
- YurgenJurgensen 2y agoSo what? Maybe it wasn’t a game in 2009. It was blatantly unfinished at that point, so this is hardly an issue.
- pavlov 2y agoBefore Minecraft became a game, what was it?
- YurgenJurgensen 2y agoExactly what it claimed to be: An alpha/beta test for a game.
- _aavaa_ 2y agoAlpha/beta is an arbitrary line in the sand drawn by the developers. Notch could have woken up one day and decided that the state the game was in was final and call the game done. If you weren’t told it was an alpha game you’d have no way of knowing. It sold a million copies while in alpha/beta, more than most other games ever made. The distinction between “alpha/beta test of game” and “game” is a distinction without a difference, especially for all the people buying it.
- netdevnet 2y ago
- netdevnet 2y agoOk, so Harvest Moon and similar farm game are not games. Games about crafting are not games. The Sims are not games. I could go on but I think you already realise that your definition is not valid. Btw, I am not disagreeing with the claim that Jeremy's games are video games
- YurgenJurgensen 2y agoIf all your Sims die, is that not a failure? Harvest Moon has Steam achievements. (And a ‘best ending’ category on speedrun.com.) You could go on, but if those are the best you could think of, I don’t think it would be very productive.
- netdevnet 2y agoIn the Sims, mortality only applies to adults not toddlers and below, so only a portion of them can die. How is a Steam achievement a score? A score is a scalar value not a Boolean one. And arguably it is not part of the game but part of Steam. You won't get Steam achievements of any game if you get it from another store. But using the Store achievement definition, Jeremy's games also qualify because they have Steam achievements (most games on Steam do have the achievements even those that fall outside of your definition of game).
- YurgenJurgensen 2y agoHow is toddler immortality relevant? A failure state exists. If toddler-only households are viable, that’s just a design oversight, which is an unrelated issue. I never said that steam achievements were a score. Please try to read my posts. I thought it would be obvious that they represent a success state. I also note that you ignored the fact that Harvest Moon literally has an ending. Also, I don’t know why Jeremy’s games qualifying is relevant. I never said they don’t.
- netdevnet 2y agoI am not reading your mind just reading what you write. So what is and is not obvious is something solely concerning you. If Steam Achievement is not a score, is Harvest Moon not a game then? Same thing about crafting and building games. And having an ending is not synonymous with a success state or a failure state. I think it's clear that your definition is not a valid one as many games don't fit it
- veunes 2y agoIt's all depending on perspective
- _aavaa_ 2y agoThis is going to become navel gazing really fast. “Art with game tropes” implies that “regular games” aren’t art. Which I disagree with. We may not have gotten Shakespeare yet, but writing was an artistic medium before him just as games are one before its version of him. And whether a particular piece of software is a game is also not clearly defined. This has been a big argument several time, see the one over Gone Home and walking simulators. Others later down argue over Minecraft and “a win state, fail state, and scoring systems”. Minecraft did not have any of these for a long time, but it would be unconvincing to say that it only become a game after it gained them.
- wly_cdgr 2y agoYou misassume my meaning. When I say I games are not art, I don't mean they are not as good / important than art. I just mean they are different. In fact, if anything, I think they are much more important than art.
- _aavaa_ 2y agoIf before I missasumed, now I don't understand. What is your meaning? What do you mean by art, and different how? I see games as a form of human expression just as writing, movies, painting, etc. They many be newer (video games certainly are) and they may be in a categorically different medium (human agency) than the others, but they're still art. And maybe one day soon someone will produce a game worthy of being called Art with a capital A.
- netdevnet 2y agoI agree with you. People treat art and video games are exclusive things when they are actually not.
- Livanskoy 2y agoIn my view, which is mostly inspired by Huizinga's works, the game is a constructed set of rules. The main game is the culture itself, that branches into the great playing tree of humanity. The video games are not that different from any other set of rules, but they are interactive, immersive and self-governing/autonomous, which is an unusual set of qualities for a media.
- wly_cdgr 2y agoYou need quantifiable outcomes / performance metrics.
- veunes 2y agoI think it's more about using those elements to explore
- slmjkdbtl 2y agoWhen I'm studying game design we spent a lot of time defining "what is a game?" While this is a good exercise, ultimately I think people shouldn't care about any label, or any is X Y questions, what matters is if you think the thing is good, if it's enjoyable etc.