18 ms·

The worst thing is that almost every non-techie who uses Telegram thinks Telegram in general is e2ee.

podviaznikov 2y ago
100% this. most people do not realize that all those non-secrete messages from private chats and group chats are stored in database that people at telegram has access to.
lxgr 2y ago
Amplified by journalists, and most frustratingly to me even some techies that just can't be bothered to properly examine all available facts despite their technical capabilities to examine them.
as1mov 2y ago
Anecdotal evidence, so take this with a grain of salt - I work with a bunch of people from Ukraine and almost all of them exclusively use Telegram to keep up with the news and family back home. From talking to them for a while, it's mostly because it's free, has excellent support for sync across multiple devices (including audio, video and other media), has support for proxies to circumvent any kind of blocking, public channels for news updates. Honestly it would be better if Telegram dropped the facade of having E2EE. It's generally very low on the priority list of most people anyway, as much as it would hurt anyone reading this, but that's the truth. People are not using it for secure messaging, but for a better UX and reliability. EDIT: Telegram does require a phone number to sign up.
- LudwigNagasena 2y ago
  > doesn't require any personal identifier Do they still not require ID when you buy a SIM card in Ukraine?
  - as1mov 2y ago
    Actually I was wrong. Just checked and Telegram does require a phone number to sign up. I haven't used it myself much, but was relaying the general reasons why regular people use it.
    - theshrike79 2y ago
      You need it to register, but afaik it's not shown to anyone in any way. You can just grab any prepaid SIM and use it if that's your style
      - glitchc 2y ago
        Yeah but the server can correlate it to all messages sent by you, and law enforcement can link server logs to your real identity thrpugh your telco.
        wruza 2y ago
        Those who need to dissociate with a number have anonymous sim cards in abundance. Costs around $2-5 a piece when ordered in bulk. That said, such high-tech operation is just a geeks fantasy about spies. When you cross the line where it becomes reality, you’re either a very big name with a sudden drug/rape history or a subject for waterboarding which is the most effective cryptoanalysis tool invented.
        glitchc 2y ago
        While this is a well-trodden stereotype, and it certainly has merit, not all crimes are Snowden-level crimes against the state. Felonies such as embezzlement, fraud and trafficking are often investigated by exposing the digital trail. Law enforcement most definitely do pull those records with a subpoena. It's often one of the first things done (pull all banking and phone records) and is often a key ingredient in a successful conviction. Yes, burner sims definitely help evade investigations, but they are harder to get nowadays, depending on jurisdiction. For instance you can't pay cash for a SIM in North America. It has to be a credit card or a bank transfer and that's a form of ID.
  - andrewyazura 2y ago
    yes, you can just get a prepaid SIM virtually anywhere. though there is an option to add your ID for security purposes
- prmoustache 2y ago
  Ideally they should really use something like jami. https://jami.net/ https://jami.net/
sundarurfriend 2y ago
Not a single person I know who uses Telegram cares about or thinks of it as e2ee. Whether "techie" or "non-techie" (whatever the definition of that is). People use it because it has a nice interface, was one of the first to have good "sticker" message support (yes, a lot of people care about that kind of stuff), and of course because of the good old network effect. It's only on HN I ever see people set up Telegram as some supposed uber-secure private app for Tor users and then demolish that strawman gleefully.
- smt88 2y ago
  Telegram is mostly used by people in the US for drug deals and chatting with people in Eastern Europe, so it's very common to believe it's a secure messenger.
- maqp 2y ago
  You could also ask about whether they think it's private. And if they say yes, ask them what it means. Does it mean only sender and intended recipients can read the message, or is it fine if the service has someone check the content. Would they agree on the notion "it's OK my nudes I send to my SO are up for grabs for anyone who hacks Telegram's servers", or do they think should Telegram plug this gaping hole. Also, people tend to state they have nothing to hide, when they feel they have nothing to fight with. But I can't count the number of times I've seen a stranger next to me on a bus cover their chat the second I sit next to them. Me, a complete random person with no interest in their life is a threat to them.
  - sam_lowry_ 2y ago
    >And if they say yes, ask them what it means I just did it to gather anecdotal evidence and the answer was, the founder is in jail to protect their privacy.
    - maqp 2y ago
      So they take theatrics over logical evaluation of the situation. Cool. Tell them Durov could have locked himself out of their data and spared himself the trip to behind bars.
d0mine 2y ago
BS. Vast majority of non-tech users do not, for a simple reason that they can't know it even if they cared, and they do not. Even tech users can't be bothered to read links to the faq on tg site. There is so much misinformation around telegram that alone made me trust it more (if a known liar tries to discredit something, it increases chances of it being good--it is about comments here on HN).
wruza 2y ago
I’d guess (not gonna test it but it feels reasonable) that “almost every non-techie” has a very vague idea of what e2ee even is, so it’s not clear where the worst part comes from. Pretty sure the best ideas they have about security are from hacker movies best case on average.
rldjbpin 2y ago
not everybody understands that "encrypted" =/= "end-to-end encrypted". the perceived secure nature of telegram has been memorialized in mainstream rap, courtesy kendrick lamar in 2017 (https://genius.com/11665524 https://genius.com/11665524).
niutech 2y ago
Because Telegram is E2EE, but only in Secret Chats: https://telegram.org/faq#secret-chats https://telegram.org/faq#secret-chats

100% this. most people do not realize that all those non-secrete messages from private chats and group chats are stored in database that people at telegram has access to.

lxgr 2y ago

Amplified by journalists, and most frustratingly to me even some techies that just can't be bothered to properly examine all available facts despite their technical capabilities to examine them.

as1mov 2y ago

Anecdotal evidence, so take this with a grain of salt - I work with a bunch of people from Ukraine and almost all of them exclusively use Telegram to keep up with the news and family back home. From talking to them for a while, it's mostly because it's free, has excellent support for sync across multiple devices (including audio, video and other media), has support for proxies to circumvent any kind of blocking, public channels for news updates. Honestly it would be better if Telegram dropped the facade of having E2EE. It's generally very low on the priority list of most people anyway, as much as it would hurt anyone reading this, but that's the truth. People are not using it for secure messaging, but for a better UX and reliability. EDIT: Telegram does require a phone number to sign up.

LudwigNagasena 2y ago
> doesn't require any personal identifier Do they still not require ID when you buy a SIM card in Ukraine?
- as1mov 2y ago
  Actually I was wrong. Just checked and Telegram does require a phone number to sign up. I haven't used it myself much, but was relaying the general reasons why regular people use it.
  - theshrike79 2y ago
    You need it to register, but afaik it's not shown to anyone in any way. You can just grab any prepaid SIM and use it if that's your style
    - glitchc 2y ago
      Yeah but the server can correlate it to all messages sent by you, and law enforcement can link server logs to your real identity thrpugh your telco.
      - wruza 2y ago
        Those who need to dissociate with a number have anonymous sim cards in abundance. Costs around $2-5 a piece when ordered in bulk. That said, such high-tech operation is just a geeks fantasy about spies. When you cross the line where it becomes reality, you’re either a very big name with a sudden drug/rape history or a subject for waterboarding which is the most effective cryptoanalysis tool invented.
        glitchc 2y ago
        While this is a well-trodden stereotype, and it certainly has merit, not all crimes are Snowden-level crimes against the state. Felonies such as embezzlement, fraud and trafficking are often investigated by exposing the digital trail. Law enforcement most definitely do pull those records with a subpoena. It's often one of the first things done (pull all banking and phone records) and is often a key ingredient in a successful conviction. Yes, burner sims definitely help evade investigations, but they are harder to get nowadays, depending on jurisdiction. For instance you can't pay cash for a SIM in North America. It has to be a credit card or a bank transfer and that's a form of ID.
- andrewyazura 2y ago
  yes, you can just get a prepaid SIM virtually anywhere. though there is an option to add your ID for security purposes
prmoustache 2y ago
Ideally they should really use something like jami. https://jami.net/ https://jami.net/

sundarurfriend 2y ago

Not a single person I know who uses Telegram cares about or thinks of it as e2ee. Whether "techie" or "non-techie" (whatever the definition of that is). People use it because it has a nice interface, was one of the first to have good "sticker" message support (yes, a lot of people care about that kind of stuff), and of course because of the good old network effect. It's only on HN I ever see people set up Telegram as some supposed uber-secure private app for Tor users and then demolish that strawman gleefully.

smt88 2y ago
Telegram is mostly used by people in the US for drug deals and chatting with people in Eastern Europe, so it's very common to believe it's a secure messenger.
maqp 2y ago
You could also ask about whether they think it's private. And if they say yes, ask them what it means. Does it mean only sender and intended recipients can read the message, or is it fine if the service has someone check the content. Would they agree on the notion "it's OK my nudes I send to my SO are up for grabs for anyone who hacks Telegram's servers", or do they think should Telegram plug this gaping hole. Also, people tend to state they have nothing to hide, when they feel they have nothing to fight with. But I can't count the number of times I've seen a stranger next to me on a bus cover their chat the second I sit next to them. Me, a complete random person with no interest in their life is a threat to them.
- sam_lowry_ 2y ago
  >And if they say yes, ask them what it means I just did it to gather anecdotal evidence and the answer was, the founder is in jail to protect their privacy.
  - maqp 2y ago
    So they take theatrics over logical evaluation of the situation. Cool. Tell them Durov could have locked himself out of their data and spared himself the trip to behind bars.

d0mine 2y ago

BS. Vast majority of non-tech users do not, for a simple reason that they can't know it even if they cared, and they do not. Even tech users can't be bothered to read links to the faq on tg site. There is so much misinformation around telegram that alone made me trust it more (if a known liar tries to discredit something, it increases chances of it being good--it is about comments here on HN).

wruza 2y ago

I’d guess (not gonna test it but it feels reasonable) that “almost every non-techie” has a very vague idea of what e2ee even is, so it’s not clear where the worst part comes from. Pretty sure the best ideas they have about security are from hacker movies best case on average.

rldjbpin 2y ago

not everybody understands that "encrypted" =/= "end-to-end encrypted". the perceived secure nature of telegram has been memorialized in mainstream rap, courtesy kendrick lamar in 2017 (https://genius.com/11665524 https://genius.com/11665524).

niutech 2y ago

Because Telegram is E2EE, but only in Secret Chats: https://telegram.org/faq#secret-chats https://telegram.org/faq#secret-chats