7 ms·

And I am saying that in most of these cases it is not that the terms "have become offensive", it's that academics and activists invent and promote, sometimes en

And I am saying that in most of these cases it is not that the terms "have become offensive", it's that academics and activists invent and promote, sometimes enforce, new terms, proactively so to speak. > using gender neutral terms when possible is nice That's your opinion, and it tends to very strongly correlate with left-wing politics, it's not a consensus opinion.

mlyle 2y ago
> it's not a consensus opinion. It's been favored in pretty much every style guide for decades at this point. I am presently in the middle of the political spectrum, but I've spent the majority of my life pretty right-leaning. At the same time, I see no reason to choose words that might imply to a lot of people that I'm only talking about men, or to choose other words that might cause people offense. It's funny how we can so clearly see this in so many domains -- referring to an unintelligent person as a "moron" would pretty clearly be not nice -- but are willing to defend doing it to other disfavored groups so strongly.
- zahlman 2y ago
  >referring to an unintelligent person as a "moron" would pretty clearly be not nice - but neither would it be an attempt to demean everyone who suffers from a learning disability. It would, instead, be an affirmation that low intelligence is an undesirable quality. And anyway, in practice, overwhelmingly such language is aimed at people of ordinary or even above average intelligence, with the intent of suggesting that the target is not meeting expectations.
  - mlyle 2y ago
    > but neither would it be an attempt to demean everyone who suffers from a learning disability No, but it might have that net effect, to whomever is in earshot. > And anyway, in practice, overwhelmingly such language is aimed at people of ordinary or even above average intelligence If you don't think the kid who is struggling in school is being called a "retard," I don't know what to tell you. Another example-- the word "boy." There's nothing intrinsically wrong with the word "boy," but it was used by a lot of people to demean black men. I certainly wouldn't want to say it to a person who would think I'm doing the same thing to that point. And at that point, maybe it's time to prune the word "boy" as a word of address out of my language, and discourage my kids from the "booooiiiiii" that would be interpreted very poorly in the wrong situation.
    - zahlman 2y ago
      >If you don't think the kid who is struggling in school is being called a "retard," I don't know what to tell you. You could start by giving me a reason to believe it.
      - mlyle 2y ago
        https://meridian.allenpress.com/idd/article-abstract/48/2/126/1460/Sticks-Stones-and-Stigma-A-Study-of-Students-Use?redirectedFrom=fulltext https://meridian.allenpress.com/idd/article-abstract/48/2/12... 36% of youth in 2009 reported having heard the word "retard" directed towards someone with an intellectual disability. My wife's brother had a birth injury and endured it pretty constantly throughout his school years.
        hollerith 2y ago
        When I was in 6th grade, almost everybody got called a retard.
        mlyle 2y ago
        That's pretty different from calling the kid with the obvious intellectual disability by the term every day as he waits to board the bus home. And given that there's people with that experience, perhaps it's time to heavily discourage use of the word in general. Calling your buddy it to be funny helps normalize it for the people who want to use it to be cruel, and gives them cover.
        hollerith 2y ago
        >perhaps it's time to heavily discourage use of the word in general. Haven't we been doing that in the US since 1990?
        mlyle 2y ago
        OK, so if we accept that something that is a neutral term can turn offensive (retarded) and that we should stop using it as a result... why not do it for other terms that have the same problem?

mlyle 2y ago

> it's not a consensus opinion. It's been favored in pretty much every style guide for decades at this point. I am presently in the middle of the political spectrum, but I've spent the majority of my life pretty right-leaning. At the same time, I see no reason to choose words that might imply to a lot of people that I'm only talking about men, or to choose other words that might cause people offense. It's funny how we can so clearly see this in so many domains -- referring to an unintelligent person as a "moron" would pretty clearly be not nice -- but are willing to defend doing it to other disfavored groups so strongly.

zahlman 2y ago
>referring to an unintelligent person as a "moron" would pretty clearly be not nice - but neither would it be an attempt to demean everyone who suffers from a learning disability. It would, instead, be an affirmation that low intelligence is an undesirable quality. And anyway, in practice, overwhelmingly such language is aimed at people of ordinary or even above average intelligence, with the intent of suggesting that the target is not meeting expectations.
- mlyle 2y ago
  > but neither would it be an attempt to demean everyone who suffers from a learning disability No, but it might have that net effect, to whomever is in earshot. > And anyway, in practice, overwhelmingly such language is aimed at people of ordinary or even above average intelligence If you don't think the kid who is struggling in school is being called a "retard," I don't know what to tell you. Another example-- the word "boy." There's nothing intrinsically wrong with the word "boy," but it was used by a lot of people to demean black men. I certainly wouldn't want to say it to a person who would think I'm doing the same thing to that point. And at that point, maybe it's time to prune the word "boy" as a word of address out of my language, and discourage my kids from the "booooiiiiii" that would be interpreted very poorly in the wrong situation.
  - zahlman 2y ago
    >If you don't think the kid who is struggling in school is being called a "retard," I don't know what to tell you. You could start by giving me a reason to believe it.
    - mlyle 2y ago
      https://meridian.allenpress.com/idd/article-abstract/48/2/126/1460/Sticks-Stones-and-Stigma-A-Study-of-Students-Use?redirectedFrom=fulltext https://meridian.allenpress.com/idd/article-abstract/48/2/12... 36% of youth in 2009 reported having heard the word "retard" directed towards someone with an intellectual disability. My wife's brother had a birth injury and endured it pretty constantly throughout his school years.
      - hollerith 2y ago
        When I was in 6th grade, almost everybody got called a retard.
        mlyle 2y ago
        That's pretty different from calling the kid with the obvious intellectual disability by the term every day as he waits to board the bus home. And given that there's people with that experience, perhaps it's time to heavily discourage use of the word in general. Calling your buddy it to be funny helps normalize it for the people who want to use it to be cruel, and gives them cover.
        hollerith 2y ago
        >perhaps it's time to heavily discourage use of the word in general. Haven't we been doing that in the US since 1990?
        mlyle 2y ago
        OK, so if we accept that something that is a neutral term can turn offensive (retarded) and that we should stop using it as a result... why not do it for other terms that have the same problem?