7 ms·

Cardinal – Virtual modular synthesizer plugin

93 points by iscream26 2y ago

v64 2y ago
Programs like this and VCV Rack are great ways to get started on the road to building your own modular synthesizer [1]. Many of the modules in the program are based on real hardware, and while the hardware versions of these modules can cost hundreds of dollars, the software versions are using the exact same firmware. Whether you stay virtual or go out and build the hardware equivalent of your rack, it's a great way to experiment and learn the basics at a lower cost than in the past. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modular_synthesizer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modular_synthesizer
- fsckboy 2y ago
  >while the hardware versions of these modules can cost hundreds of dollars, the software versions are using the exact same firmware firmware? so for the modules you are talking about, what you are saying is that they're virtual analog software synths anyway, and the "hardware" aspect simply provides some jacks for patching?
  - drmr 2y ago
    They are not necessarily "virtual analog", they can also just be "digital". Think the Mutable Instruments modules, many of these are based around STM32 microcontrollers. The firmware is MIT licensed and has simply been ported into Rack modules. There are a number of Rack modules that started out as pure hardware that now have virtual counter-parts.
  - vegadw 2y ago
    Eurorack setups can be as digital or analog as you want these days. My rack, https://modulargrid.net/e/racks/view/2558872 https://modulargrid.net/e/racks/view/2558872 , for example is mostly analog oscilators and filters, but digital low-frequency oscilators, envelopes, sequencing, and effects. IMHO, the analog filters and oscilators are 90% of the analog magic though, so that's what really matters to me.
Lucasoato 2y ago
It would be nice to add a guide or a question in the FAQs about using your PC keyboard for MIDI input. I've explored the project and the menus a bit, but I can't get it to work from the browser (Firefox, Linux).
vindex10 2y ago
Very nice project, it has all the basic modules to start learning from, and most importantly - in one place. I'm using it myself in combination with Ardour, now at the beginning of my learning curve - it is great!
Archit3ch 2y ago
It lacks the VultModulesFree from VCV...
- drmr 2y ago
  These are proprietary so how would you include these? Cardinal is based on open-source modules (compatible with GPL3.0-or-later license) that are all compiled into a single static binary. This is not possible with proprietary binaries.
  - Archit3ch 2y ago
    Loading proprietary binaries at runtime is still GPL-compliant.
    - drmr 2y ago
      Cardinal does not load any external module binaries, the entire plugin is a single static binary. This is done on purpose for stability and resolving symbol conflicts within a single namespace. We believe this is the best way to operate an audio plugin. There is an LV2/VST2/3/CLAP/JSFX plugin loader (Carla or Ildaeil) that can load audio plugins, but these don't sit directly in the Rack DSP graph and do not modify the Rack runtime like its modules do. You could load the VCV-Pro plugin and run it inside one of these if needed ;)
      - Archit3ch 2y ago
        Or run VCV Free with all the modules and run a virtual cable to Cardinal. ;)
vegadw 2y ago
This only includes a small subset of the VCV Library, some of the best modules aren't included in this and pretty cool. There's also some incredible paid modules in the library worth checking out.
- chabes 2y ago
  There are also a few collections that are available only in Cardinal, and not VCV
- drmr 2y ago
  You think over 1200 modules is small? Definitely enough for endless hours of modular patching.
  - vegadw 2y ago
    I'm not saying the quantity is small, I'm saying the subset is. There are 3,336 VCV modules. So, 1200 is only ~35%. Notably, for myself, only about 1/3 of the modules I have developed are there (some of mine are paid), and it lacks some of the truly great analog modeled modules such as those from Vult, Cytomics, and Lindenberg Research.
    - drmr 2y ago
      Any proprietary or GPL3.0-only modules would of course not be able to be built into the binary (also bit cheeky to consider those as "missing" since they are fundamentally incompatble). And this gives VCV Rack a better value proposition, so a reason for people to specifically use it. We also have several modules that are missing from VCV Rack because they were never ported to 2.0 Some of our own modules are missing from the VCV Library because of their commercial restrictions. And while the idea of an "infinite" rack of modules is really cool, that is also not the goal of Cardinal or how we feel it is best used. Quality of quantity first. There is still a big list of potential modules to include: https://github.com/DISTRHO/Cardinal/wiki/Possible-modules-to-include https://github.com/DISTRHO/Cardinal/wiki/Possible-modules-to... However we are somewhat limited by what we can even build in a single CI job on github. Our current builds are already quite stretching of what is possible. And again quality over quantity.
throwaway888abc 2y ago
It remind me Rebirth [0] (had so much fun epochs ago). Soo many buttons, but where the heck is play button ? I will leave it more experienced musicians :). Looks like great project [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ReBirth_RB-338 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ReBirth_RB-338
- kostadin 2y ago
  Do you mean Reason? This was the first virtual synth with patching UI that Propellerhead released a bit after ReBirth. ReBirth was amazing though and would love if someone brings it back. They had an iPad version that worked pretty well but apparently Roland forced them to take it down.
gausswho 2y ago
I'm a little torn on how I feel towards the Cardinal project. It claims not to be a fork on a technicality. It brings some improvements certainly and VCV dev has felt stagnant the last couple years, but it's also a little uncomfortably (to me) ideologically trying to GPL VCV. At least they are transparent about it. I like their community presence. I wonder if most users of Cardinal are aware how much of what they appreciate is the work upstream. A lot of value is lost to not have access to all of VCV's free-but-not-GPL modules, but the gap is shrinking.
- kibibu 2y ago
  VCV Pro has the DAW plugin feature as a paid extra. Cardinal seems to be taking the GPL version of VCV and using it to undercut the main income source of the VCV project.
  - PaulDavisThe1st 2y ago
    That was never the intent. There are some technical issues with VCV Rack, and the lead developer is ... gently resistant to accepting patches/fixes from anyone else. Cardinal started as an attempt to do some things better than VCV Rack does. Most people involved think it would probably have been better if those changes had been upstreamed, but that's not VCV Rack's development model.
    - goblin89 2y ago
      What technical issues are there with VCV Rack that are addressed by the forks (Cardinal, MiRack, etc.)? I recently switched to VCV Rack 2 as my main creative tool, and it has been very stable and performant with frequent updates[0]. My experience led me to pay for Pro just to support this work (even though the free feature set is more than enough). [0] My only beef, I suppose, is that those frequent updates can alter the sound in case of long-running projects; it never happened with the rack itself, but it did happen with some modules. That said, regular copies of the app and the plugins directory is a sufficient workaround for my purposes, it’s less than 50 MB after all.
tpm 2y ago
Also there is now a physical eurorack module where you can load and play VCV modules. https://modulargrid.net/e/4ms-company-metamodule https://modulargrid.net/e/4ms-company-metamodule
- geethree 2y ago
  Wow. I guess I haven’t been paying attention to 4ms lately.. this feels wrong but right. I like it.
- dag11 2y ago
  When can I get this module in VCV? :)
  - xxyyzzddss 2y ago
    They got you covered:(11:30) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qB4A32yrcwI&t=684s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qB4A32yrcwI&t=684s
    - camtarn 2y ago
      Sort of. I think in the video you linked, what's being shown is an instance of VCV Rack representing the modules running within the MetaModule, and there's a non-interactive MetaModule faceplate in that rack that you can use to map from the real MetaModule's controls to the virtual knobs of the modules it's running. Which is a pretty cool interface. But I reckon what the GP is asking is for a real interactive MetaModule within VCV Rack, running the real firmware - i.e. VCV Rack hosts the MetaModule, which hosts VCV Rack, which could presumably host another MetaModule, which could host another VCV Rack ... etc etc.
      - drmr 2y ago
        You can host Cardinal inside of Cardinal inside of ..
jinay 2y ago
I'm in the process of building a similar project aimed towards beginners, so it's hopefully a bit less daunting than Cardinal/VCV Rack. https://wavepen.jinay.dev/ https://wavepen.jinay.dev/
fp64 2y ago
Does this offer anything besides circumventing the little set of features that VCV Rack charges money for? Am I subsidizing the development of this tool with my paid VCV Rack version?
- drmr 2y ago
  You can read about all the main differences in this document: https://github.com/DISTRHO/Cardinal/blob/main/docs/DIFFERENCES.md https://github.com/DISTRHO/Cardinal/blob/main/docs/DIFFERENC... One could argue that a plugin version is more than a minor feature. Cardinal is not affiliated with VCV in any way. We use the upstream Rack source-code as a base so any support towards VCV will ultimately "trickle down" (in the form of code) back to Cardinal as well.
  - fp64 2y ago
    Ah, thank you. The Plug-in version is one of the main selling points of VCV Pro though, no? I have VCV as a VST plug-in, plus the ability to use any VST plug-in inside VCV which were for me the main reasons to purchase it (apart from wanting to support the project and buy commercial modules).
    - drmr 2y ago
      Exactly, you said "little set of features" but this is anything but little. You can also use any VST plugin inside of Cardinal using the Carla and Ildaeil modules.
squigz 2y ago
How might one get started with this sort of thing? It's always intrigued me but it's very daunting...

93 points by iscream26 2y ago

v64 2y ago

Programs like this and VCV Rack are great ways to get started on the road to building your own modular synthesizer [1]. Many of the modules in the program are based on real hardware, and while the hardware versions of these modules can cost hundreds of dollars, the software versions are using the exact same firmware. Whether you stay virtual or go out and build the hardware equivalent of your rack, it's a great way to experiment and learn the basics at a lower cost than in the past. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modular_synthesizer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modular_synthesizer

fsckboy 2y ago
>while the hardware versions of these modules can cost hundreds of dollars, the software versions are using the exact same firmware firmware? so for the modules you are talking about, what you are saying is that they're virtual analog software synths anyway, and the "hardware" aspect simply provides some jacks for patching?
- drmr 2y ago
  They are not necessarily "virtual analog", they can also just be "digital". Think the Mutable Instruments modules, many of these are based around STM32 microcontrollers. The firmware is MIT licensed and has simply been ported into Rack modules. There are a number of Rack modules that started out as pure hardware that now have virtual counter-parts.
- vegadw 2y ago
  Eurorack setups can be as digital or analog as you want these days. My rack, https://modulargrid.net/e/racks/view/2558872 https://modulargrid.net/e/racks/view/2558872 , for example is mostly analog oscilators and filters, but digital low-frequency oscilators, envelopes, sequencing, and effects. IMHO, the analog filters and oscilators are 90% of the analog magic though, so that's what really matters to me.

Lucasoato 2y ago

It would be nice to add a guide or a question in the FAQs about using your PC keyboard for MIDI input. I've explored the project and the menus a bit, but I can't get it to work from the browser (Firefox, Linux).

vindex10 2y ago

Very nice project, it has all the basic modules to start learning from, and most importantly - in one place. I'm using it myself in combination with Ardour, now at the beginning of my learning curve - it is great!

Archit3ch 2y ago

It lacks the VultModulesFree from VCV...

drmr 2y ago
These are proprietary so how would you include these? Cardinal is based on open-source modules (compatible with GPL3.0-or-later license) that are all compiled into a single static binary. This is not possible with proprietary binaries.
- Archit3ch 2y ago
  Loading proprietary binaries at runtime is still GPL-compliant.
  - drmr 2y ago
    Cardinal does not load any external module binaries, the entire plugin is a single static binary. This is done on purpose for stability and resolving symbol conflicts within a single namespace. We believe this is the best way to operate an audio plugin. There is an LV2/VST2/3/CLAP/JSFX plugin loader (Carla or Ildaeil) that can load audio plugins, but these don't sit directly in the Rack DSP graph and do not modify the Rack runtime like its modules do. You could load the VCV-Pro plugin and run it inside one of these if needed ;)
    - Archit3ch 2y ago
      Or run VCV Free with all the modules and run a virtual cable to Cardinal. ;)

vegadw 2y ago

This only includes a small subset of the VCV Library, some of the best modules aren't included in this and pretty cool. There's also some incredible paid modules in the library worth checking out.

chabes 2y ago
There are also a few collections that are available only in Cardinal, and not VCV
drmr 2y ago
You think over 1200 modules is small? Definitely enough for endless hours of modular patching.
- vegadw 2y ago
  I'm not saying the quantity is small, I'm saying the subset is. There are 3,336 VCV modules. So, 1200 is only ~35%. Notably, for myself, only about 1/3 of the modules I have developed are there (some of mine are paid), and it lacks some of the truly great analog modeled modules such as those from Vult, Cytomics, and Lindenberg Research.
  - drmr 2y ago
    Any proprietary or GPL3.0-only modules would of course not be able to be built into the binary (also bit cheeky to consider those as "missing" since they are fundamentally incompatble). And this gives VCV Rack a better value proposition, so a reason for people to specifically use it. We also have several modules that are missing from VCV Rack because they were never ported to 2.0 Some of our own modules are missing from the VCV Library because of their commercial restrictions. And while the idea of an "infinite" rack of modules is really cool, that is also not the goal of Cardinal or how we feel it is best used. Quality of quantity first. There is still a big list of potential modules to include: https://github.com/DISTRHO/Cardinal/wiki/Possible-modules-to-include https://github.com/DISTRHO/Cardinal/wiki/Possible-modules-to... However we are somewhat limited by what we can even build in a single CI job on github. Our current builds are already quite stretching of what is possible. And again quality over quantity.

throwaway888abc 2y ago

It remind me Rebirth [0] (had so much fun epochs ago). Soo many buttons, but where the heck is play button ? I will leave it more experienced musicians :). Looks like great project [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ReBirth_RB-338 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ReBirth_RB-338

kostadin 2y ago
Do you mean Reason? This was the first virtual synth with patching UI that Propellerhead released a bit after ReBirth. ReBirth was amazing though and would love if someone brings it back. They had an iPad version that worked pretty well but apparently Roland forced them to take it down.

gausswho 2y ago

I'm a little torn on how I feel towards the Cardinal project. It claims not to be a fork on a technicality. It brings some improvements certainly and VCV dev has felt stagnant the last couple years, but it's also a little uncomfortably (to me) ideologically trying to GPL VCV. At least they are transparent about it. I like their community presence. I wonder if most users of Cardinal are aware how much of what they appreciate is the work upstream. A lot of value is lost to not have access to all of VCV's free-but-not-GPL modules, but the gap is shrinking.

kibibu 2y ago
VCV Pro has the DAW plugin feature as a paid extra. Cardinal seems to be taking the GPL version of VCV and using it to undercut the main income source of the VCV project.
- PaulDavisThe1st 2y ago
  That was never the intent. There are some technical issues with VCV Rack, and the lead developer is ... gently resistant to accepting patches/fixes from anyone else. Cardinal started as an attempt to do some things better than VCV Rack does. Most people involved think it would probably have been better if those changes had been upstreamed, but that's not VCV Rack's development model.
  - goblin89 2y ago
    What technical issues are there with VCV Rack that are addressed by the forks (Cardinal, MiRack, etc.)? I recently switched to VCV Rack 2 as my main creative tool, and it has been very stable and performant with frequent updates[0]. My experience led me to pay for Pro just to support this work (even though the free feature set is more than enough). [0] My only beef, I suppose, is that those frequent updates can alter the sound in case of long-running projects; it never happened with the rack itself, but it did happen with some modules. That said, regular copies of the app and the plugins directory is a sufficient workaround for my purposes, it’s less than 50 MB after all.

tpm 2y ago

Also there is now a physical eurorack module where you can load and play VCV modules. https://modulargrid.net/e/4ms-company-metamodule https://modulargrid.net/e/4ms-company-metamodule

geethree 2y ago
Wow. I guess I haven’t been paying attention to 4ms lately.. this feels wrong but right. I like it.
dag11 2y ago
When can I get this module in VCV? :)
- xxyyzzddss 2y ago
  They got you covered:(11:30) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qB4A32yrcwI&t=684s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qB4A32yrcwI&t=684s
  - camtarn 2y ago
    Sort of. I think in the video you linked, what's being shown is an instance of VCV Rack representing the modules running within the MetaModule, and there's a non-interactive MetaModule faceplate in that rack that you can use to map from the real MetaModule's controls to the virtual knobs of the modules it's running. Which is a pretty cool interface. But I reckon what the GP is asking is for a real interactive MetaModule within VCV Rack, running the real firmware - i.e. VCV Rack hosts the MetaModule, which hosts VCV Rack, which could presumably host another MetaModule, which could host another VCV Rack ... etc etc.
    - drmr 2y ago
      You can host Cardinal inside of Cardinal inside of ..

jinay 2y ago

I'm in the process of building a similar project aimed towards beginners, so it's hopefully a bit less daunting than Cardinal/VCV Rack. https://wavepen.jinay.dev/ https://wavepen.jinay.dev/

fp64 2y ago

Does this offer anything besides circumventing the little set of features that VCV Rack charges money for? Am I subsidizing the development of this tool with my paid VCV Rack version?

drmr 2y ago
You can read about all the main differences in this document: https://github.com/DISTRHO/Cardinal/blob/main/docs/DIFFERENCES.md https://github.com/DISTRHO/Cardinal/blob/main/docs/DIFFERENC... One could argue that a plugin version is more than a minor feature. Cardinal is not affiliated with VCV in any way. We use the upstream Rack source-code as a base so any support towards VCV will ultimately "trickle down" (in the form of code) back to Cardinal as well.
- fp64 2y ago
  Ah, thank you. The Plug-in version is one of the main selling points of VCV Pro though, no? I have VCV as a VST plug-in, plus the ability to use any VST plug-in inside VCV which were for me the main reasons to purchase it (apart from wanting to support the project and buy commercial modules).
  - drmr 2y ago
    Exactly, you said "little set of features" but this is anything but little. You can also use any VST plugin inside of Cardinal using the Carla and Ildaeil modules.

squigz 2y ago

How might one get started with this sort of thing? It's always intrigued me but it's very daunting...