6 ms·

America is sabotaging itself in the global battle for talent

53 points by cr1895 2y ago

ralph84 2y ago
Simple fix to running out of H1Bs would be to ban body shops from the program.
cr1895 2y ago
https://archive.is/zcAkj https://archive.is/zcAkj
tazu 2y ago
> A Harvard study tried to measure this by looking at what happened to researchers when a colleague died. The loss of an immigrant brainbox reduced co-workers’ productivity (measured in patents) by nearly twice as much as the loss of a native. From this, the study estimated that immigrants in America, though only 14% of the population, are responsible for a colossal 36% of innovation. 1) What the hell is a brainbox? 2) What does the death of a colleague have to do with innovation? 3) Can you really measure innovation with "# of patents"? By that measure, Panasonic is the most innovative company in the world.
- wslh 2y ago
  Am I the only one thinking that "Harvard studies" are passé? On a personal note Harvard business related bibliography ended in my bookshelf with management classics and many HBRs from the early 2000s.
  - seneca 2y ago
    Not at all. Harvard's name on something created in the last decade damages its credibility.
- trollbridge 2y ago
  I have generally thought of immigrants as "people", not "brainboxes". Losing a coworker, particularly at a small company, is also quite traumatic. After losing a key member of a team, perhaps the survivors find they have other priorities in life than trying to file for lots of patents. This seems like a rather obvious confounding factor.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - jamesjamesdupre 2y ago
    Sure, but their being foreign changing behavior a lot more? It's possible but its a better finding than Freud ever had.
  - tazu 2y ago
    > After losing a key member of a team, perhaps the survivors find they have other priorities in life than trying to file for lots of patents. This seems like a rather obvious confounding factor. Exactly, seems pretty disingenuous to measure grieving people's productivity and compare based on whether they're grieving the death of a native or immigrant.
    - trollbridge 2y ago
      If I lost my cofounder (who isn't a migrant) I would be devastated and probably wouldn't produce much of anything for a year or two. If they were from another country and I didn't even have any of my cofounder's family around, just a big gaping hole where they used to be... I'd probably quit and go find a job somewhere else so I could stop thinking about it. Getting a patent application in would be the very last thing on my mind.
- dannyobrien 2y ago
  https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/brainbox https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/brainbox British slang for "clever person" (The Economist is based in the UK).
- princevegeta89 2y ago
  1) Net total of everything brought/created by his brain for that organization? 2) His death also meant the death of his creativity in his team. It also means that no one else could replicate it at that level? [That they couldn't find a replacement for him quick enough] 3) By how well it is received by an organization and real world customers. Would you say that Steve Jobs brought life into an otherwise dull company called Apple? Not saying that immigrants are like him, but just throwing some light on your questions.
  - tazu 2y ago
    > 3) By how well it is received by an organization and real world customers. One patent can be more "innovative" than 10,000 patents. For example, 10,000 patents on horse carriage designs/parts compared to one patent for a Model T car.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
darvinyraghpath 2y ago
Nah. Skilled immigrants simply do not have a backing votebank to push this through. Capital, as is well known, is more mobile than labor. The reverse 'brain drain' began a while ago. Google India has close to if not more employees than in the US. Indian and Chinese immigrants in tech returning to India and China is (in my anecdotal experience) at an all time high.
- katzinsky 2y ago
  Developed countries are absolutely swamped with immigrants (skilled and not.) We're not short on workers but we are dysfunctionally short on social cohesion. Immigration exacerbates that and people check out. EDIT: I'm out of posts for the day, here's my reply. I mean people being able to communicate and empathize with eachother. No one works No one can get jobs (all the fake job postings and applications) No one is dating etc etc. These are all fundamentally the result of the destruction of social cohesion. This is a well known cyclical phenomenon and immigration is absolutely the opposite thing you should be doing in this phase of the cycle. EDIT2: You can have large portions of the population unemployed and unemployment at historic lows if enough people have dropped out of the work force. According to the BLS that appears to be exactly what has happened in the US and is consistent with what I'm arguing.
  - darvinyraghpath 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - katzinsky 2y ago
      [flagged]
  - darvinyraghpath 2y ago
    I'm guessing by social cohesion you mean 'people unlike me'. Many Americans do seem to share that view.
    - 2y ago
colechristensen 2y ago
I think it's good for the world and good for America if we don't siphon off the best and brightest from everywhere else, especially more developing countries. Dangling green cards in front of the most motivated people from other countries is not better than actually working to develop our own talent, which we're doing an awful job at. Think of how things would be if school funding was something being demanded by industry to develop the best candidates. Instead we have the lucky few and a bunch of people who feel very rightly left behind.
- firesteelrain 2y ago
  I understand the sentiment. US has a lot of capital to spend on talent compared to poorer countries. US provides a lot of opportunities that normally would not be available to them. And the US benefits
- davidw 2y ago
  > siphon off These are people we are talking about, with agency, capable of making their own choices in life, not some inanimate "resource". If they want to come to the US, I'm a "grow the pie" guy.
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    Also, if they come here and better themselves, they’re going to produce goods and services that make the world better off. And if they return, they have more to contribute.
- ThrowawayR2 2y ago
  > "Think of how things would be if school funding was something being demanded by industry to develop the best candidates." It would be pretty much the same because you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink.
- programmarchy 2y ago
  It's not an either-or, though, is it? Why can't we both improve developing the native population and siphon the best and brightest from everywhere else?
jmclnx 2y ago
Another issue is the US education System. Yes there is and always will be a need for skilled people from other Countries. But in the US, many High School grads need to be re-taught some basic high-school level courses as freshmen. This started in the 80s. I remember a couple of profs telling me this. But many US communities cannot afford to provide a good education for various reasons. To me, the largest reason is no one wants to pay taxes.
- jimbob45 2y ago
  But in the US, many High School grads need to be re-taught some basic high-school level courses as freshmen. Which pales in comparison to the English education immigrants need but never receive.
  - gwervc 2y ago
    > Which pales in comparison to the English education immigrants need but never receive. ??? So people can travel half the world and fill all the paperwork to immigrate to the US but somehow then can't register to a language class? At some point we should stop blaming society for laziness of individuals. It never has been that easy to learn languages (esp. English) and for free thanks to the internet.
  - trollbridge 2y ago
    Immigrant founders or other highly skilled tech workers I've been around who speak English as a second language have, for the most part, had excellent English skills.
- darvinyraghpath 2y ago
  I will say - as someone selecting schools now for my kid - the thing I worry about is my child being surrounded by other bright, motivated kids. In my experience that's the kind of thing that makes them be better - much more than 'great schools'. It's the same reason folks move to the bay - to be where the 'best' are.
  - 2y ago
cr1895 2y ago
Personal experience - emigrating to the Netherlands after higher education is a well-defined and relatively easy process. After graduating you're able to apply for a "search year" residence permit which entitles you to residence and full access to the Dutch job market. (https://ind.nl/en/residence-permits/work/residence-permit-for-orientation-year https://ind.nl/en/residence-permits/work/residence-permit-fo...) Normally then you're able to get a "highly skilled migrant" permit (with less restrictive criteria than had you not studied in NL) which is renewable, then eventually after passing some language and integration tests and sufficient time you're eligible for long-term permanent residence (or even citizenship). It's a refreshingly sane approach compared to the US.
- aprasadh 2y ago
  Same with Germany with the new Opportunity card program
nb_quant 2y ago
When I looked I found that the top math talent in the world has been increasingly concentrated in the US (specifically MIT) over the last 30 years [1]. Staying in academia is an easy way for immigrants to stay in the US but it would be nice if there was an easier path out into industry. [1] https://xquant.substack.com/p/where-have-the-international-math https://xquant.substack.com/p/where-have-the-international-m...
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
akira2501 2y ago
So you're telling me that people who go through the trouble of leaving their home country and going through a grueling process to emigrate to a new one are not typically very lazy? Wow! Thanks again, Harvard, you truly are pushing on the boundaries of human knowledge over there.
dyauspitr 2y ago
55% of all US unicorns have immigrant founders. 36% of all US unicorns are founded by Indian immigrants alone. No other statistic is needed to validate the value of immigration.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
xpl 2y ago
It is very hard to immigrate into the U.S. if you're a skilled worker. The system is almost nonsensical. There are annual H1B lotteries (with a small chance of winning). There are L1's requiring you to work abroad in an American company for at least a year before applying. And none of those visas get you residency — it is a wholly separate process taking many years and a huge amount of paperwork, during which you live in a constant fear of losing your job and subsequent deportation if you can't find a new employer ready to sponsor your visa immediately. And for L1 you can't even switch employers which leads to a possible exploitation of a worker. There are often huge wait times in U.S. embassies, you can't just go there and get a visa in a week or so — often you need to wait for many months for your interview. And a cherry on top — specifically for technology workers, there is an "administrative processing" step in obtaining a visa. Basically, if you have a STEM degree, it triggers an additional security check (U.S. will automatically imply that you're a spy). It is a check that has no SLA on completion time — I know people who waited for many years (!) for that "administrative processing" to finish. What employer will wait for multiple years until every three-letter agency approves your case? It is madness, yet, it is the norm. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technology_Alert_List https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technology_Alert_List And yet, the U.S. lets millions of people across the border with absolutely no paperwork, no security checks — it is actually 10x easier to just walk through the border than try to get to the U.S. legally even if you're a high-profile engineer or a scientist. It's a clown show.
- trollbridge 2y ago
  I suspect it would be faster for many people to migrate to Canada, attain citizenship, and then take the much easier NAFTA (USMCA?) visa path if they want to be in the United States. Although it looks like many migrants to Canada just end up deciding to stay there. 30 years ago, this was a popular path for people from Australia who wanted to get to America, using Canada as a stepping stone.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
kazinator 2y ago
It's amazing how the USA can deflect immigrants to Canada, and still have housing problems.
- davidw 2y ago
  US housing problems, as much as someone wants to blame some bogeyman like immigrants or foreign buyers or institutional investors or RealPage, are mostly a factor of local, NIMBY-driven politics. Source: years of volunteer work.
8f2ab37a-ed6c 2y ago
It's interesting that some tech jobs could also be leaving the US, cost of labor is too high for what you get out of it: https://www.gamedeveloper.com/business/why-is-it-so-expensive-to-make-games-in-the-united-states- https://www.gamedeveloper.com/business/why-is-it-so-expensiv...
stackskipton 2y ago
This is one of 3rd rail of US Tech Workers so stepping into it is fun. This is discussing recent comment made by Donald Trump: “You graduate from a college, I think you should get, automatically as part of your diploma, a green card [permanent residence in the United States].” and wondering why United States doesn't do this compared to many other countries who have similar programs. On one hand, United States educates a ton of foreigners, some of them with extremely advanced Degrees, then kicks them out of the country. This seems counterproductive to growing US economy. On other hand, many in Tech Sector have seen recent layoffs, H-1B hiring to replace workers and offshore outsourcing and see such a proposal as a threat to their livelihood. Tech is still good sector to make a decent living in despite many companies' desperate attempts to reduce the cost. As US Tech Worker, I think I would oppose such systems where "Visa handed to all graduate degree holders" since I think schools would just create graduate programs to increase enrollment regardless of if those programs actually contributed great candidates or not.
fastneutron 2y ago
Another problem is the propensity for Congress to want to do "immigration reform" as a giant omnibus action. The discourse inevitably gets bogged down in mudslinging over the southern border, and any useful discussion over topics like this gets lost in the noise.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
kkfx 2y ago
I'm not a specific talent but I was a globetrotter having choose a different country than my original one. Some aspects I've valued and I still value: - country stability, in term of internal and external projection (I would not look for a country about to go to war or suffer a civil war if I can) witch migh be counterbalanced by... - ...country population, a population I trust or not, detached or not form the country ruling cohort, meaning mean corruption, attitude toward others, conformism etc; - current fiscal policies, a high heritage tax for instance is a very BAD point, I can accept only if I know how to escape; - climate status and possible evolution, orography, food production potential to nourish citizens in case of deep crisis etc; - scholar system, a free one vs a paid one, an open one vs a casts based one; - a balance of forces between the public and private sector, when one of both prevail the eventual current stability will not last longer; USA for me might be partially attractive: - in climate, orography, food production potential, they are safe; - in terms of overall stability they are not so much stable, even though not more unstable than many others; BUT: - the fiscal system is very oppressive to my eyes; - the private sector essentially is the State; - the scholar system have some positive points, like a presence of talents, even if they are declining, but it's largely a cast bases system, and overall not attractive at all; - the health system is good enough to be annihilated in a thermonuclear heat; As an western European what can I get from USA? Some beautiful nature, but a byzantine bureaucracy, a very bad health system, a bad scholar system, a private sector more and more similar to a corporatocracy where the "American Dream" was a distant memory. Trying to imaging a Chinese talent why exchange a growing, technically, industrially active country for the USA? Oh sure China future due to their demographic imbalance is essentially doomed, but not tomorrow morning. It's a bit like Nazi German of the '30s compared to the USA '29s disaster. Very similar for many aspects, but in a totally different shape. Trying to imaging a Japanese I think Japan is doomed for many reasons but still being from Japan I can hope for better chance than facing a big switch to a totally different country with a similar corporate sector imbalance. Maybe an Indian might decide to go for mere climatic reasons and chaotic, corruption level of the country itself. I can keep going but the whole point is that USA was attractive because they was very active and they pay well (this is still valid today, but less than the past), now they a are a giant finance machine still with natural resources about to go to war to save a financial system that can't stand. Of course a vast country is many things, but that means at least civil war or significant risk of it. Not interesting for a life choice in a turbulent time. IF the public came back to the cold war model of public funded research lead by researchers not by managers pretending to design the research itself and the researchers are just another kind of Ford model workers or while they have many interesting aspects those are not enough.
quantified 2y ago
> Its success is an implicit rebuke of places that still have paper forms and surly border officials, such as America. Who has surlier? I'm always appalled at the US border attitude. You can perform all the same actions with a professional or friendly demeanor.
foo1281315 2y ago
[flagged]

53 points by cr1895 2y ago

ralph84 2y ago

Simple fix to running out of H1Bs would be to ban body shops from the program.

cr1895 2y ago

https://archive.is/zcAkj https://archive.is/zcAkj

tazu 2y ago

> A Harvard study tried to measure this by looking at what happened to researchers when a colleague died. The loss of an immigrant brainbox reduced co-workers’ productivity (measured in patents) by nearly twice as much as the loss of a native. From this, the study estimated that immigrants in America, though only 14% of the population, are responsible for a colossal 36% of innovation. 1) What the hell is a brainbox? 2) What does the death of a colleague have to do with innovation? 3) Can you really measure innovation with "# of patents"? By that measure, Panasonic is the most innovative company in the world.

wslh 2y ago
Am I the only one thinking that "Harvard studies" are passé? On a personal note Harvard business related bibliography ended in my bookshelf with management classics and many HBRs from the early 2000s.
- seneca 2y ago
  Not at all. Harvard's name on something created in the last decade damages its credibility.
trollbridge 2y ago
I have generally thought of immigrants as "people", not "brainboxes". Losing a coworker, particularly at a small company, is also quite traumatic. After losing a key member of a team, perhaps the survivors find they have other priorities in life than trying to file for lots of patents. This seems like a rather obvious confounding factor.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- jamesjamesdupre 2y ago
  Sure, but their being foreign changing behavior a lot more? It's possible but its a better finding than Freud ever had.
- tazu 2y ago
  > After losing a key member of a team, perhaps the survivors find they have other priorities in life than trying to file for lots of patents. This seems like a rather obvious confounding factor. Exactly, seems pretty disingenuous to measure grieving people's productivity and compare based on whether they're grieving the death of a native or immigrant.
  - trollbridge 2y ago
    If I lost my cofounder (who isn't a migrant) I would be devastated and probably wouldn't produce much of anything for a year or two. If they were from another country and I didn't even have any of my cofounder's family around, just a big gaping hole where they used to be... I'd probably quit and go find a job somewhere else so I could stop thinking about it. Getting a patent application in would be the very last thing on my mind.
dannyobrien 2y ago
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/brainbox https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/brainbox British slang for "clever person" (The Economist is based in the UK).
princevegeta89 2y ago
1) Net total of everything brought/created by his brain for that organization? 2) His death also meant the death of his creativity in his team. It also means that no one else could replicate it at that level? [That they couldn't find a replacement for him quick enough] 3) By how well it is received by an organization and real world customers. Would you say that Steve Jobs brought life into an otherwise dull company called Apple? Not saying that immigrants are like him, but just throwing some light on your questions.
- tazu 2y ago
  > 3) By how well it is received by an organization and real world customers. One patent can be more "innovative" than 10,000 patents. For example, 10,000 patents on horse carriage designs/parts compared to one patent for a Model T car.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

darvinyraghpath 2y ago

Nah. Skilled immigrants simply do not have a backing votebank to push this through. Capital, as is well known, is more mobile than labor. The reverse 'brain drain' began a while ago. Google India has close to if not more employees than in the US. Indian and Chinese immigrants in tech returning to India and China is (in my anecdotal experience) at an all time high.

katzinsky 2y ago
Developed countries are absolutely swamped with immigrants (skilled and not.) We're not short on workers but we are dysfunctionally short on social cohesion. Immigration exacerbates that and people check out. EDIT: I'm out of posts for the day, here's my reply. I mean people being able to communicate and empathize with eachother. No one works No one can get jobs (all the fake job postings and applications) No one is dating etc etc. These are all fundamentally the result of the destruction of social cohesion. This is a well known cyclical phenomenon and immigration is absolutely the opposite thing you should be doing in this phase of the cycle. EDIT2: You can have large portions of the population unemployed and unemployment at historic lows if enough people have dropped out of the work force. According to the BLS that appears to be exactly what has happened in the US and is consistent with what I'm arguing.
- darvinyraghpath 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - katzinsky 2y ago
    [flagged]
- darvinyraghpath 2y ago
  I'm guessing by social cohesion you mean 'people unlike me'. Many Americans do seem to share that view.
  - 2y ago

colechristensen 2y ago

I think it's good for the world and good for America if we don't siphon off the best and brightest from everywhere else, especially more developing countries. Dangling green cards in front of the most motivated people from other countries is not better than actually working to develop our own talent, which we're doing an awful job at. Think of how things would be if school funding was something being demanded by industry to develop the best candidates. Instead we have the lucky few and a bunch of people who feel very rightly left behind.

firesteelrain 2y ago
I understand the sentiment. US has a lot of capital to spend on talent compared to poorer countries. US provides a lot of opportunities that normally would not be available to them. And the US benefits
davidw 2y ago
> siphon off These are people we are talking about, with agency, capable of making their own choices in life, not some inanimate "resource". If they want to come to the US, I'm a "grow the pie" guy.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  Also, if they come here and better themselves, they’re going to produce goods and services that make the world better off. And if they return, they have more to contribute.
ThrowawayR2 2y ago
> "Think of how things would be if school funding was something being demanded by industry to develop the best candidates." It would be pretty much the same because you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink.
programmarchy 2y ago
It's not an either-or, though, is it? Why can't we both improve developing the native population and siphon the best and brightest from everywhere else?

jmclnx 2y ago

Another issue is the US education System. Yes there is and always will be a need for skilled people from other Countries. But in the US, many High School grads need to be re-taught some basic high-school level courses as freshmen. This started in the 80s. I remember a couple of profs telling me this. But many US communities cannot afford to provide a good education for various reasons. To me, the largest reason is no one wants to pay taxes.

jimbob45 2y ago
But in the US, many High School grads need to be re-taught some basic high-school level courses as freshmen. Which pales in comparison to the English education immigrants need but never receive.
- gwervc 2y ago
  > Which pales in comparison to the English education immigrants need but never receive. ??? So people can travel half the world and fill all the paperwork to immigrate to the US but somehow then can't register to a language class? At some point we should stop blaming society for laziness of individuals. It never has been that easy to learn languages (esp. English) and for free thanks to the internet.
- trollbridge 2y ago
  Immigrant founders or other highly skilled tech workers I've been around who speak English as a second language have, for the most part, had excellent English skills.
darvinyraghpath 2y ago
I will say - as someone selecting schools now for my kid - the thing I worry about is my child being surrounded by other bright, motivated kids. In my experience that's the kind of thing that makes them be better - much more than 'great schools'. It's the same reason folks move to the bay - to be where the 'best' are.
- 2y ago

cr1895 2y ago

Personal experience - emigrating to the Netherlands after higher education is a well-defined and relatively easy process. After graduating you're able to apply for a "search year" residence permit which entitles you to residence and full access to the Dutch job market. (https://ind.nl/en/residence-permits/work/residence-permit-for-orientation-year https://ind.nl/en/residence-permits/work/residence-permit-fo...) Normally then you're able to get a "highly skilled migrant" permit (with less restrictive criteria than had you not studied in NL) which is renewable, then eventually after passing some language and integration tests and sufficient time you're eligible for long-term permanent residence (or even citizenship). It's a refreshingly sane approach compared to the US.

aprasadh 2y ago
Same with Germany with the new Opportunity card program

nb_quant 2y ago

When I looked I found that the top math talent in the world has been increasingly concentrated in the US (specifically MIT) over the last 30 years [1]. Staying in academia is an easy way for immigrants to stay in the US but it would be nice if there was an easier path out into industry. [1] https://xquant.substack.com/p/where-have-the-international-math https://xquant.substack.com/p/where-have-the-international-m...

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

akira2501 2y ago

So you're telling me that people who go through the trouble of leaving their home country and going through a grueling process to emigrate to a new one are not typically very lazy? Wow! Thanks again, Harvard, you truly are pushing on the boundaries of human knowledge over there.

dyauspitr 2y ago

55% of all US unicorns have immigrant founders. 36% of all US unicorns are founded by Indian immigrants alone. No other statistic is needed to validate the value of immigration.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

xpl 2y ago

It is very hard to immigrate into the U.S. if you're a skilled worker. The system is almost nonsensical. There are annual H1B lotteries (with a small chance of winning). There are L1's requiring you to work abroad in an American company for at least a year before applying. And none of those visas get you residency — it is a wholly separate process taking many years and a huge amount of paperwork, during which you live in a constant fear of losing your job and subsequent deportation if you can't find a new employer ready to sponsor your visa immediately. And for L1 you can't even switch employers which leads to a possible exploitation of a worker. There are often huge wait times in U.S. embassies, you can't just go there and get a visa in a week or so — often you need to wait for many months for your interview. And a cherry on top — specifically for technology workers, there is an "administrative processing" step in obtaining a visa. Basically, if you have a STEM degree, it triggers an additional security check (U.S. will automatically imply that you're a spy). It is a check that has no SLA on completion time — I know people who waited for many years (!) for that "administrative processing" to finish. What employer will wait for multiple years until every three-letter agency approves your case? It is madness, yet, it is the norm. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technology_Alert_List https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technology_Alert_List And yet, the U.S. lets millions of people across the border with absolutely no paperwork, no security checks — it is actually 10x easier to just walk through the border than try to get to the U.S. legally even if you're a high-profile engineer or a scientist. It's a clown show.

trollbridge 2y ago
I suspect it would be faster for many people to migrate to Canada, attain citizenship, and then take the much easier NAFTA (USMCA?) visa path if they want to be in the United States. Although it looks like many migrants to Canada just end up deciding to stay there. 30 years ago, this was a popular path for people from Australia who wanted to get to America, using Canada as a stepping stone.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

kazinator 2y ago

It's amazing how the USA can deflect immigrants to Canada, and still have housing problems.

davidw 2y ago
US housing problems, as much as someone wants to blame some bogeyman like immigrants or foreign buyers or institutional investors or RealPage, are mostly a factor of local, NIMBY-driven politics. Source: years of volunteer work.

8f2ab37a-ed6c 2y ago

It's interesting that some tech jobs could also be leaving the US, cost of labor is too high for what you get out of it: https://www.gamedeveloper.com/business/why-is-it-so-expensive-to-make-games-in-the-united-states- https://www.gamedeveloper.com/business/why-is-it-so-expensiv...

stackskipton 2y ago

This is one of 3rd rail of US Tech Workers so stepping into it is fun. This is discussing recent comment made by Donald Trump: “You graduate from a college, I think you should get, automatically as part of your diploma, a green card [permanent residence in the United States].” and wondering why United States doesn't do this compared to many other countries who have similar programs. On one hand, United States educates a ton of foreigners, some of them with extremely advanced Degrees, then kicks them out of the country. This seems counterproductive to growing US economy. On other hand, many in Tech Sector have seen recent layoffs, H-1B hiring to replace workers and offshore outsourcing and see such a proposal as a threat to their livelihood. Tech is still good sector to make a decent living in despite many companies' desperate attempts to reduce the cost. As US Tech Worker, I think I would oppose such systems where "Visa handed to all graduate degree holders" since I think schools would just create graduate programs to increase enrollment regardless of if those programs actually contributed great candidates or not.

fastneutron 2y ago

Another problem is the propensity for Congress to want to do "immigration reform" as a giant omnibus action. The discourse inevitably gets bogged down in mudslinging over the southern border, and any useful discussion over topics like this gets lost in the noise.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

kkfx 2y ago

I'm not a specific talent but I was a globetrotter having choose a different country than my original one. Some aspects I've valued and I still value: - country stability, in term of internal and external projection (I would not look for a country about to go to war or suffer a civil war if I can) witch migh be counterbalanced by... - ...country population, a population I trust or not, detached or not form the country ruling cohort, meaning mean corruption, attitude toward others, conformism etc; - current fiscal policies, a high heritage tax for instance is a very BAD point, I can accept only if I know how to escape; - climate status and possible evolution, orography, food production potential to nourish citizens in case of deep crisis etc; - scholar system, a free one vs a paid one, an open one vs a casts based one; - a balance of forces between the public and private sector, when one of both prevail the eventual current stability will not last longer; USA for me might be partially attractive: - in climate, orography, food production potential, they are safe; - in terms of overall stability they are not so much stable, even though not more unstable than many others; BUT: - the fiscal system is very oppressive to my eyes; - the private sector essentially is the State; - the scholar system have some positive points, like a presence of talents, even if they are declining, but it's largely a cast bases system, and overall not attractive at all; - the health system is good enough to be annihilated in a thermonuclear heat; As an western European what can I get from USA? Some beautiful nature, but a byzantine bureaucracy, a very bad health system, a bad scholar system, a private sector more and more similar to a corporatocracy where the "American Dream" was a distant memory. Trying to imaging a Chinese talent why exchange a growing, technically, industrially active country for the USA? Oh sure China future due to their demographic imbalance is essentially doomed, but not tomorrow morning. It's a bit like Nazi German of the '30s compared to the USA '29s disaster. Very similar for many aspects, but in a totally different shape. Trying to imaging a Japanese I think Japan is doomed for many reasons but still being from Japan I can hope for better chance than facing a big switch to a totally different country with a similar corporate sector imbalance. Maybe an Indian might decide to go for mere climatic reasons and chaotic, corruption level of the country itself. I can keep going but the whole point is that USA was attractive because they was very active and they pay well (this is still valid today, but less than the past), now they a are a giant finance machine still with natural resources about to go to war to save a financial system that can't stand. Of course a vast country is many things, but that means at least civil war or significant risk of it. Not interesting for a life choice in a turbulent time. IF the public came back to the cold war model of public funded research lead by researchers not by managers pretending to design the research itself and the researchers are just another kind of Ford model workers or while they have many interesting aspects those are not enough.

quantified 2y ago

> Its success is an implicit rebuke of places that still have paper forms and surly border officials, such as America. Who has surlier? I'm always appalled at the US border attitude. You can perform all the same actions with a professional or friendly demeanor.

foo1281315 2y ago

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