8 ms·

I suggest maintaining a neutral buffer zone between NATO and RF by not bringing Ukraine and other bordering nations into NATO. You found zero evidence that Russ

I suggest maintaining a neutral buffer zone between NATO and RF by not bringing Ukraine and other bordering nations into NATO. You found zero evidence that Russia wants to expand its borders. Although the communist party is the second largest in RF, its influence is relatively small and sees little likelihood of gaining significant power to restore the USSR. The Donbas is populated mainly by Russian people who had been in a civil war with western Ukraine since the 2014 Maidan coup. They wanted to join the Russian Federation for years, but Russia did not want that until the situation became untenable. Russia's economy is growing faster than the US and Europe. Perhaps that will encourage immigration. RF is implementing many policies to aid families to have more children and encourage controlled immigration. They could use about another billion people in that vast and rich territory.

tryauuum 2y ago
I didn't read the whole thread but this seems incorrect to me: You found zero evidence that Russia wants to expand its borders doesn't acquiring Crimea speak against that? Or you don't consider it an expansion of borders because people speak russian there?
- kornhole 2y ago
  Crimea is history at this point. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/official-results-97-of-crimea-voters-back-joining-russia/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/official-results-97-of-crimea-v... I was referring to claims we hear that Russia wants to expand its empire into European countries outside of Ukraine. RF expressly did not want to take in the Donbas as is shown in the Minsk treaties and its actions repeatedly. It tried to exert influence to stop the civil war with subsequent peace treaty negotiations, but those were thwarted. https://europeanconservative.com/articles/news/official-johnson-forced-kyiv-to-refuse-russian-peace-deal/ https://europeanconservative.com/articles/news/official-john... RF was left with little options at this point.
  - aguaviva 2y ago
    These aren't "claims"; Putin and his crew are quite open and unapologetic about their intentions in this regard. March 31, 2014: After annexing Crimea and with troops massed on the border of Ukraine, Vladimir Putin will not stop trying to expand Russia until he has “conquered” Belarus, the Baltic states and Finland, one of his closest former advisers has said. According to Andrej Illarionov, the President’s chief economic adviser from 2000 to 2005, Mr Putin seeks to create “historical justice” with a return to the days of the last Tsar, Nicholas II, and the Soviet Union under Stalin. Speaking to the Swedish newspaper Svenska Dagbladet, Mr Illarionov warned that Russia will argue that the granting of independence to Finland in 1917 was an act of “treason against national interests”. “Putin’s view is that he protects what belongs to him and his predecessors,” Mr Illarionov said. “Parts of Georgia, Ukraine, Belarus, the Baltic States and Finland are states where Putin claims to have ownership. He added: “The West’s leaders seem, from what they say, entirely to have forgotten that there are some leaders in the world who want to conquer other countries.” https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/vladimir-putin-wants-to-regain-finland-for-russia-adviser-says-9224273.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/vladimir-put... May 17, 2023: The former Russian Prime Minister referred to the three Baltic states as "ours" on Tuesday, adding Poland was "temporarily occupied". https://www.euronews.com/2023/05/17/russias-dmitry-medvedev-claims-baltic-countries-belong-to-russia https://www.euronews.com/2023/05/17/russias-dmitry-medvedev-... July 21, 2023: “The western territories of present-day Poland are a gift from Stalin to the Poles, have our friends in Warsaw forgotten about this?” Putin said. “We will remind you.” https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jul/21/putin-warn-poland-against-unleashing-aggression-against-belarus-troops-eastern-border https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jul/21/putin-warn-pol... More likely what he seeks from most of these countries (except the Baltics) is a "sphere of influence" with significant restrictions on the sovereignty of these countries, rather than direct annexation. But either way, and unmistakably -- a modern-day "empire" is what he's after, by every available indication. [Johnson Forced Kyiv To Refuse Russian Peace Deal] Though often repeated, this is simply misinformation. I don't have time to unpack it for you; but the source quoted in the article (VR faction leader David Arakhamiya) explicitly denies the overall spin of events as presented in the article. Crimea is history at this point. Not to the Ukrainians, and certainly not to the Tatars.
    - 2y ago
aguaviva 2y ago
The Donbas is populated mainly by Russian people False. The regions in question identified as Ukrainian, and by a solid majority (55-45) in the most recent census. Yes -- even Russian speakers identified as "Ukrainian" when given the choice. And just because 45 percent identified as "Russian", for most this was a matter of linguistic identification, nothing more. It doesn't mean they were irredentist, or actually wanted to live in Putin's Russia. Who had been in a civil war False. In no sense was the 2014 conflict ever a "civil war". It was led, orchestrated, and fought by Russian nationals from the very start. This is openly acknowledged by Russian sources, including the very people who organized the initial skirmishes, and there's really no controversy about it. 2014 Maidan coup There was no "coup" either, and these factual inversions are starting to get very tedious to correct. But for those interested in more detail: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40481317 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40481317 They wanted to join the Russian Federation for years Not "they" as in a majority, or even a near-majority. Some did, but the Novorossiya movement as such was quite small pre-2014. You found zero evidence that Russia wants to expand its borders. Putin has already openly expressed his wish to annex the currently occupied territories (and then some) into the RF.
- kornhole 2y ago
  Yes I should have stated more clearly that most of the people in the Donbas were either ethnic Russian or Russian speaking. Regardless of that, the majority wanted to join the RF. https://nationalfile.com/donbas-region-overwhelmingly-votes-to-join-russia-international-observers-debunk-pro-war-media-narrative/ https://nationalfile.com/donbas-region-overwhelmingly-votes-... 2014 may not have looked like a coup from the media and is difficult to prove as one. Too much US state department involvement makes it look like one if you did deeper. Countless analyses by others with inside knowledge believe it was in the style of a color revolution. Too many sources to list here.
  - aguaviva 2y ago
    (1) Do you actually trust information posted on websites run by Alex Jones? (2) The "referendum" you're referring to has been widely denounced as a sham by many international organizations (such as the UN and OSCE), and nearly every government on the planet for that matter, except for North Korea. Even close Russian allies such as Hungary and Serbia refused to recognize the results. Are these facts of no concern to you -- or do you simply prefer to take the occupying power's word on the matter?

tryauuum 2y ago

I didn't read the whole thread but this seems incorrect to me: You found zero evidence that Russia wants to expand its borders doesn't acquiring Crimea speak against that? Or you don't consider it an expansion of borders because people speak russian there?

kornhole 2y ago
Crimea is history at this point. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/official-results-97-of-crimea-voters-back-joining-russia/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/official-results-97-of-crimea-v... I was referring to claims we hear that Russia wants to expand its empire into European countries outside of Ukraine. RF expressly did not want to take in the Donbas as is shown in the Minsk treaties and its actions repeatedly. It tried to exert influence to stop the civil war with subsequent peace treaty negotiations, but those were thwarted. https://europeanconservative.com/articles/news/official-johnson-forced-kyiv-to-refuse-russian-peace-deal/ https://europeanconservative.com/articles/news/official-john... RF was left with little options at this point.
- aguaviva 2y ago
  These aren't "claims"; Putin and his crew are quite open and unapologetic about their intentions in this regard. March 31, 2014: After annexing Crimea and with troops massed on the border of Ukraine, Vladimir Putin will not stop trying to expand Russia until he has “conquered” Belarus, the Baltic states and Finland, one of his closest former advisers has said. According to Andrej Illarionov, the President’s chief economic adviser from 2000 to 2005, Mr Putin seeks to create “historical justice” with a return to the days of the last Tsar, Nicholas II, and the Soviet Union under Stalin. Speaking to the Swedish newspaper Svenska Dagbladet, Mr Illarionov warned that Russia will argue that the granting of independence to Finland in 1917 was an act of “treason against national interests”. “Putin’s view is that he protects what belongs to him and his predecessors,” Mr Illarionov said. “Parts of Georgia, Ukraine, Belarus, the Baltic States and Finland are states where Putin claims to have ownership. He added: “The West’s leaders seem, from what they say, entirely to have forgotten that there are some leaders in the world who want to conquer other countries.” https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/vladimir-putin-wants-to-regain-finland-for-russia-adviser-says-9224273.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/vladimir-put... May 17, 2023: The former Russian Prime Minister referred to the three Baltic states as "ours" on Tuesday, adding Poland was "temporarily occupied". https://www.euronews.com/2023/05/17/russias-dmitry-medvedev-claims-baltic-countries-belong-to-russia https://www.euronews.com/2023/05/17/russias-dmitry-medvedev-... July 21, 2023: “The western territories of present-day Poland are a gift from Stalin to the Poles, have our friends in Warsaw forgotten about this?” Putin said. “We will remind you.” https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jul/21/putin-warn-poland-against-unleashing-aggression-against-belarus-troops-eastern-border https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jul/21/putin-warn-pol... More likely what he seeks from most of these countries (except the Baltics) is a "sphere of influence" with significant restrictions on the sovereignty of these countries, rather than direct annexation. But either way, and unmistakably -- a modern-day "empire" is what he's after, by every available indication. [Johnson Forced Kyiv To Refuse Russian Peace Deal] Though often repeated, this is simply misinformation. I don't have time to unpack it for you; but the source quoted in the article (VR faction leader David Arakhamiya) explicitly denies the overall spin of events as presented in the article. Crimea is history at this point. Not to the Ukrainians, and certainly not to the Tatars.
  - 2y ago

aguaviva 2y ago

The Donbas is populated mainly by Russian people False. The regions in question identified as Ukrainian, and by a solid majority (55-45) in the most recent census. Yes -- even Russian speakers identified as "Ukrainian" when given the choice. And just because 45 percent identified as "Russian", for most this was a matter of linguistic identification, nothing more. It doesn't mean they were irredentist, or actually wanted to live in Putin's Russia. Who had been in a civil war False. In no sense was the 2014 conflict ever a "civil war". It was led, orchestrated, and fought by Russian nationals from the very start. This is openly acknowledged by Russian sources, including the very people who organized the initial skirmishes, and there's really no controversy about it. 2014 Maidan coup There was no "coup" either, and these factual inversions are starting to get very tedious to correct. But for those interested in more detail: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40481317 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40481317 They wanted to join the Russian Federation for years Not "they" as in a majority, or even a near-majority. Some did, but the Novorossiya movement as such was quite small pre-2014. You found zero evidence that Russia wants to expand its borders. Putin has already openly expressed his wish to annex the currently occupied territories (and then some) into the RF.

kornhole 2y ago
Yes I should have stated more clearly that most of the people in the Donbas were either ethnic Russian or Russian speaking. Regardless of that, the majority wanted to join the RF. https://nationalfile.com/donbas-region-overwhelmingly-votes-to-join-russia-international-observers-debunk-pro-war-media-narrative/ https://nationalfile.com/donbas-region-overwhelmingly-votes-... 2014 may not have looked like a coup from the media and is difficult to prove as one. Too much US state department involvement makes it look like one if you did deeper. Countless analyses by others with inside knowledge believe it was in the style of a color revolution. Too many sources to list here.
- aguaviva 2y ago
  (1) Do you actually trust information posted on websites run by Alex Jones? (2) The "referendum" you're referring to has been widely denounced as a sham by many international organizations (such as the UN and OSCE), and nearly every government on the planet for that matter, except for North Korea. Even close Russian allies such as Hungary and Serbia refused to recognize the results. Are these facts of no concern to you -- or do you simply prefer to take the occupying power's word on the matter?