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I use Orion exclusively because Kagi is the default search engine. It does have a few more bugs than chrome / safari, but they're well worth putting up with to

I use Orion exclusively because Kagi is the default search engine. It does have a few more bugs than chrome / safari, but they're well worth putting up with to get native Kagi support. Thank you. It's interesting though - what is Apple's vested interest in only having native support for certain search engines? I now no longer use their browser because of this - I would think that is _some_ kind of loss for them. Maybe not, since I'm on macOS anyway.

mandevil 2y ago
According to sworn testimony, Apple got over 20 billion dollars from Google in 2022. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-05-01/google-s-payments-to-apple-reached-20-billion-in-2022-cue-says https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-05-01/google-s-...
- matwood 2y ago
  That's to have Google be default. It doesn't explain why it's impossible to add others to the list.
  - ethbr1 2y ago
    I can think of 20 billion reasons.
  - trentnix 2y ago
    I think the circumstantial evidence is sufficient to figure it out.
    - bee_rider 2y ago
      Are we supposing that Google made their payment conditional on obfuscating the ability to switch search engines?
      - mminer237 2y ago
        Even if not explicitly conditioned, which I don't believe came out as being the case in this case, there's still an inherent motivation. Google will pay more for a default on an OS where it's hard to switch the default than it will for a default where it's easy to switch away. Google might pay $20 billion for defaults on iOS as-is where 99% of people stick with Google, but if Apple started asking users if they were sure and offering alternatives and Google only remained the default for half of people, they logically would only offer maybe $10 billion to remain default on the same actual terms.
        bee_rider 2y ago
        It seems plausible. Mostly I think people should be explicit and clear about their accusations. Something that doesn’t make a ton of sense to me in this theory is that, despite it being hard to add a new engine (which is not great), it is easy to switch away from Google on iOS. And the big search engines are in their pre-populated list. So it seems Google and Apple have engaged in a conspiracy to keep people from switching… just to the niche engines? That doesn’t make a ton of sense, right? Google is probably not more scared of Kagi than Bing. My first guess is that Apple lived through the era of confused non-technical people adding a bunch of scam search engines and didn’t want a repeat of that.
        lmm 2y ago
        > That doesn’t make a ton of sense, right? Google is probably not more scared of Kagi than Bing. Google certainly should be more scared of Kagi than Bing. Bing is a known quantity that's not going to suddenly shoot ahead of them. A smaller, newer competitor might. Just like how it wasn't Lycos or Jeeves that dethroned Yahoo, it was the two guys in a garage.
      - austhrow743 2y ago
        As long as it’s an ongoing relationship nothing needs to be said. Apple knows that if more users swap away from the default then the default setting is less valuable.
  - mandevil 2y ago
    Under these circumstances, it is appropriate to ask who is the customer. Then presume that the company is trying its best to make the customer happy. Apple has clearly defined that the customer for the "default search engine selection" option is Google and not the users. There is obviously some mediation by regulators in Europe and elsewhere (hence Google's major competitors being included on the list), but the customer is Google. I think that from that fact flows two further inferences: A) the customer might not want to write down everything, or even communicate in any non-deniable way, all of their preferences (due to those regulators), but can presume that Apple understands their preferences B) The customer is happy to the tune of 20 billion dollars with the current set-up.
- rdsnsca 2y ago
  That doesn't mean all Apple users use it.
  - tsimionescu 2y ago
    No, it means Google paid Apple and Kagi didn't.

mandevil 2y ago

According to sworn testimony, Apple got over 20 billion dollars from Google in 2022. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-05-01/google-s-payments-to-apple-reached-20-billion-in-2022-cue-says https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-05-01/google-s-...

matwood 2y ago
That's to have Google be default. It doesn't explain why it's impossible to add others to the list.
- ethbr1 2y ago
  I can think of 20 billion reasons.
- trentnix 2y ago
  I think the circumstantial evidence is sufficient to figure it out.
  - bee_rider 2y ago
    Are we supposing that Google made their payment conditional on obfuscating the ability to switch search engines?
    - mminer237 2y ago
      Even if not explicitly conditioned, which I don't believe came out as being the case in this case, there's still an inherent motivation. Google will pay more for a default on an OS where it's hard to switch the default than it will for a default where it's easy to switch away. Google might pay $20 billion for defaults on iOS as-is where 99% of people stick with Google, but if Apple started asking users if they were sure and offering alternatives and Google only remained the default for half of people, they logically would only offer maybe $10 billion to remain default on the same actual terms.
      - bee_rider 2y ago
        It seems plausible. Mostly I think people should be explicit and clear about their accusations. Something that doesn’t make a ton of sense to me in this theory is that, despite it being hard to add a new engine (which is not great), it is easy to switch away from Google on iOS. And the big search engines are in their pre-populated list. So it seems Google and Apple have engaged in a conspiracy to keep people from switching… just to the niche engines? That doesn’t make a ton of sense, right? Google is probably not more scared of Kagi than Bing. My first guess is that Apple lived through the era of confused non-technical people adding a bunch of scam search engines and didn’t want a repeat of that.
        lmm 2y ago
        > That doesn’t make a ton of sense, right? Google is probably not more scared of Kagi than Bing. Google certainly should be more scared of Kagi than Bing. Bing is a known quantity that's not going to suddenly shoot ahead of them. A smaller, newer competitor might. Just like how it wasn't Lycos or Jeeves that dethroned Yahoo, it was the two guys in a garage.
    - austhrow743 2y ago
      As long as it’s an ongoing relationship nothing needs to be said. Apple knows that if more users swap away from the default then the default setting is less valuable.
- mandevil 2y ago
  Under these circumstances, it is appropriate to ask who is the customer. Then presume that the company is trying its best to make the customer happy. Apple has clearly defined that the customer for the "default search engine selection" option is Google and not the users. There is obviously some mediation by regulators in Europe and elsewhere (hence Google's major competitors being included on the list), but the customer is Google. I think that from that fact flows two further inferences: A) the customer might not want to write down everything, or even communicate in any non-deniable way, all of their preferences (due to those regulators), but can presume that Apple understands their preferences B) The customer is happy to the tune of 20 billion dollars with the current set-up.
rdsnsca 2y ago
That doesn't mean all Apple users use it.
- tsimionescu 2y ago
  No, it means Google paid Apple and Kagi didn't.