8 ms·

> our IT wizard says the fixes wont work on lathes/CNC systems Why, whY, WHY...are these things connected to the internet?!

foobarian 2y ago
And why are they running windows? And why are they running Crowdstrike? WTF
- MangoCoffee 2y ago
  Not sure what the OS has to do with CrowdStrike's fuckup. CrowdStrike also runs on Linux and macOS.
  - lend000 2y ago
    And yet, of course it happens to Windows.
    - skrebbel 2y ago
      This thread has multiple anecdotes of the same happening on their Linux version earlier.
  - gradyfps 2y ago
    The boot loop / BSOD issues are Windows specific.
- consp 2y ago
  If they are offline it should not matter which OS they run, maybe a RTOS for the control software but anything goes for the ux. If they are online, well...
- sameerds 2y ago
  It's probably the remote computer that's running Windows and currently affected by Crowdstrike.
mschuster91 2y ago
CNC literally stands for "Computer numerical control". They're like the OG 3D printers, they just work subtractively than additive, and at much much much better precision. You absolutely need computers to control them and loading up models via USB sticks becomes annoying rather fast, so naturally the control computers are network connected.
- swatcoder 2y ago
  "Network connected" or "conveniently programmable" !== "Internet connected" It was a rhetorical question. I'm sure the GP knows what the machines are and why they might need some kind of convenient data supply. Both manufacturers and on-site IT teams have simply gotten cavalier about internet connectivity, network isolation, automatic updates, etc -- convincing themselves that the catastrophic risks that come along with these processes will either not happen to them or will only happen when someone else can be blamed.
commandlinefan 2y ago
> WHY...are these things connected to the internet Because the manufacturer makes sure they don't start up if they're not. Otherwise how else would they be able to spy on you?
- more_corn 2y ago
  And charge you
- skrebbel 2y ago
  Source?
  - betaby 2y ago
    https://slate.com/business/2017/04/a-garage-door-company-s-response-to-a-bad-review-gives-support-to-internet-of-things-paranoia.html https://slate.com/business/2017/04/a-garage-door-company-s-r...
    - skrebbel 2y ago
      That’s not a lathe nor a CNC system. Again, which CNC manufacturers are installing windows + crowdstrike on their machines just so they can spy on their customers? You’re all just spreading conjecture. This attitude isn’t at all as widespread (nor profitable) in low(ish) volume B2B hardware sectors. These industries have terrible track records wrt security and even software robustness, but they don’t routinely spy on their customers for weird marketing reasons. If there’s remote connectivity it’s for real reasons (eg remote maintenance, updates etc). The suggestion that CNC machines run internet connected windows+crowdstrike just so the manufacturer can spy on their customers strikes me as pretty ridiculous and your garage door story doesn’t really relate. Much more likely that they do it for (possibly bad) non-malicious reasons.
octacat 2y ago
some of them even have GPS. To prevent selling to sanctioned countries or reselling in general.
HarryHirsch 2y ago
Why, whY, WHY...are these things connected to the internet?! It's so that the support engineer at the manufacturer can log in to troubleshoot. And then company IT support sprinkles a layer of antivirus on top. That's how we got here.
phkahler 2y ago
>> Why, whY, WHY...are these things connected to the internet?! Because SCADA systems. It's worthwhile to have an overview of an entire plant up in the main office. You can easily see what's running, what's not and what's got problems that need fixed. Now for a small shop running jobs individually, they should definitely NOT be connected to the internet or even the LAN. But hey, some people think a thermostat needs to be on the network so there's that...
o34jto432jt 2y ago
So the manufacturer can sell you a "cloud connected service plan" where they change the font once every six months.
jdietrich 2y ago
Remote monitoring, analytics and diagnostics have a significant impact on uptime, utilisation and profitability. You're thinking in terms of a single machine, but the managers of machine shops are thinking in terms of a complex process across many machines and often across many sites. Some of that functionality could be delivered using an airgapped network, but a lot of important features essentially require an internet connection.
- acuozzo 2y ago
  An embedded controller can deliver all of this information over a serial line to a central hub.
rustcleaner 2y ago
For our entertainment in times like this, of course! grabs a bucket of popcorn and takes cover
willcipriano 2y ago
Tinfoil hat: Government might want to track/limit/<remotely brick> CNC machine usage someday to say prevent weapons manufacture and encourages this behavior in a similar manner to the way it encourages social media platforms to censor speech. Some of the really advanced CNC machines have GPS in them and won't work in "bad" countries.

foobarian 2y ago

And why are they running windows? And why are they running Crowdstrike? WTF

MangoCoffee 2y ago
Not sure what the OS has to do with CrowdStrike's fuckup. CrowdStrike also runs on Linux and macOS.
- lend000 2y ago
  And yet, of course it happens to Windows.
  - skrebbel 2y ago
    This thread has multiple anecdotes of the same happening on their Linux version earlier.
- gradyfps 2y ago
  The boot loop / BSOD issues are Windows specific.
consp 2y ago
If they are offline it should not matter which OS they run, maybe a RTOS for the control software but anything goes for the ux. If they are online, well...
sameerds 2y ago
It's probably the remote computer that's running Windows and currently affected by Crowdstrike.

mschuster91 2y ago

CNC literally stands for "Computer numerical control". They're like the OG 3D printers, they just work subtractively than additive, and at much much much better precision. You absolutely need computers to control them and loading up models via USB sticks becomes annoying rather fast, so naturally the control computers are network connected.

swatcoder 2y ago
"Network connected" or "conveniently programmable" !== "Internet connected" It was a rhetorical question. I'm sure the GP knows what the machines are and why they might need some kind of convenient data supply. Both manufacturers and on-site IT teams have simply gotten cavalier about internet connectivity, network isolation, automatic updates, etc -- convincing themselves that the catastrophic risks that come along with these processes will either not happen to them or will only happen when someone else can be blamed.

commandlinefan 2y ago

> WHY...are these things connected to the internet Because the manufacturer makes sure they don't start up if they're not. Otherwise how else would they be able to spy on you?

more_corn 2y ago
And charge you
skrebbel 2y ago
Source?
- betaby 2y ago
  https://slate.com/business/2017/04/a-garage-door-company-s-response-to-a-bad-review-gives-support-to-internet-of-things-paranoia.html https://slate.com/business/2017/04/a-garage-door-company-s-r...
  - skrebbel 2y ago
    That’s not a lathe nor a CNC system. Again, which CNC manufacturers are installing windows + crowdstrike on their machines just so they can spy on their customers? You’re all just spreading conjecture. This attitude isn’t at all as widespread (nor profitable) in low(ish) volume B2B hardware sectors. These industries have terrible track records wrt security and even software robustness, but they don’t routinely spy on their customers for weird marketing reasons. If there’s remote connectivity it’s for real reasons (eg remote maintenance, updates etc). The suggestion that CNC machines run internet connected windows+crowdstrike just so the manufacturer can spy on their customers strikes me as pretty ridiculous and your garage door story doesn’t really relate. Much more likely that they do it for (possibly bad) non-malicious reasons.

octacat 2y ago

some of them even have GPS. To prevent selling to sanctioned countries or reselling in general.

HarryHirsch 2y ago

Why, whY, WHY...are these things connected to the internet?! It's so that the support engineer at the manufacturer can log in to troubleshoot. And then company IT support sprinkles a layer of antivirus on top. That's how we got here.

phkahler 2y ago

>> Why, whY, WHY...are these things connected to the internet?! Because SCADA systems. It's worthwhile to have an overview of an entire plant up in the main office. You can easily see what's running, what's not and what's got problems that need fixed. Now for a small shop running jobs individually, they should definitely NOT be connected to the internet or even the LAN. But hey, some people think a thermostat needs to be on the network so there's that...

o34jto432jt 2y ago

So the manufacturer can sell you a "cloud connected service plan" where they change the font once every six months.

jdietrich 2y ago

Remote monitoring, analytics and diagnostics have a significant impact on uptime, utilisation and profitability. You're thinking in terms of a single machine, but the managers of machine shops are thinking in terms of a complex process across many machines and often across many sites. Some of that functionality could be delivered using an airgapped network, but a lot of important features essentially require an internet connection.

acuozzo 2y ago
An embedded controller can deliver all of this information over a serial line to a central hub.

rustcleaner 2y ago

For our entertainment in times like this, of course! grabs a bucket of popcorn and takes cover

willcipriano 2y ago

Tinfoil hat: Government might want to track/limit/<remotely brick> CNC machine usage someday to say prevent weapons manufacture and encourages this behavior in a similar manner to the way it encourages social media platforms to censor speech. Some of the really advanced CNC machines have GPS in them and won't work in "bad" countries.