5 ms·

How could Hartlieb have illustrated a potato or Jerusalem artichoke in 1462? Anyways, original text is here: https://www.loc.gov/resource/gdcwdl.wdl_07492/?st

How could Hartlieb have illustrated a potato or Jerusalem artichoke in 1462? Anyways, original text is here: https://www.loc.gov/resource/gdcwdl.wdl_07492/?st=gallery https://www.loc.gov/resource/gdcwdl.wdl_07492/?st=gallery

throwup238 2y ago
It’s a bad translation using a more modern meaning of “erdapfel” instead of a medieval one. Could easily be a very local colloquialism instead of a widespread name. To my eye it looks like a melon or gourd plant. It’s definitely not a tuber (the next drawing shows an underground bulb).
- fuzztester 2y ago
  Some deductions: >>potato grows in the earth >erdapfel I know a few French words, so I know that potato in French is pomme de terre (fruit of the earth) I am learning German. I know that apfel means apple in German. I know that Erdbeere means strawberry in German. beere sounds like berry. straw sometimes lies on the earth (after it is cut). I just Googled for the word earth in German and it shows erde. so it seems like erdapfel means "earth apple", which sounds like the French "fruit of the earth". how's that for a bit(te) of logical deduction? I feel a bit(te) like a human Prolog interpret-a. now I'll go and finish my Bier(e), which inspired me-a. ;)
  - detaro 2y ago
    But it can't have in 1462, when potatoes (and Jerusalem artichokes) weren't known to Europeans yet.
    - throwup238 2y ago
      Yep, they weren't introduced to Europe until the late 16th century: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF00029633 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF00029633 At that time, "erdapfel" meant something else entirely: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erdapfel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erdapfel The reason I think it's a heirloom melon variety is threefold: a) "earth apple" fits because melons grow on the ground, b) there are green melons with yellow and pink stripes/patches, with the same elongated fruit shape, c) vines and leaf shape.
    - fuzztester 2y ago
      You're right. Only after the Columbian Exchange were those plants known to Europe. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbian_exchange https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbian_exchange
  - fuzztester 2y ago
    I just googled a bit more and saw this: https://en.m.wikisource.org/wiki/An_Etymological_Dictionary_of_the_German_Language/Annotated/Erdbeere https://en.m.wikisource.org/wiki/An_Etymological_Dictionary_...
  - draven 2y ago
    > I know a few French words, so I know that potato in French is pomme de terre (fruit of the earth) "pomme" means apple, so it's even closer to the german etymology.
    - fuzztester 2y ago
      good to know, thanks. joke: from now on, whenever anyone asks what type of computer i have, I will say: pomme! non! merde! meaning: Apple! no! https://www.dictionary.com/browse/merde https://www.dictionary.com/browse/merde ;)
- aftoprokrustes 2y ago
  If I trust Wikipedia, even today the term "Erdapfel" is used to refer to topinambour in some regions: "Mancherorts in Baden wird Topinambur als Erdapfel bezeichnet." https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topinambur#:~:text=Mancherorts%20in%20Baden%20wird%20Topinambur%20als%20Erdapfel%20bezeichnet https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topinambur#:~:text=Mancherorts.... Topinambour would have been available in the middle ages. Confusion with potato by the modern reader is understandable, as a topinambour does look similar to a potato, and some German dialects (e.g. Swiss dialects) name potatoes "Erdapfel".
  - throwup238 2y ago
    > Topinambour would have been available in the middle ages. No, Helianthus tuberosus [1] aka "topinambur" is Jerusalem artichoke which would not have been available at the time. It's a New World crop just like the potato. We're talking about a book written in 1462, before the Columbian exchange. The plant wasn't introduced to Europe until the early 17th century. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helianthus_tuberosus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helianthus_tuberosus
OJFord 2y ago
Wiktionary says of Erdapfel (which OP admittedly with '?' wasn't sure how to translate): > From Middle High German ertapfel, erdapfel, ertöpfel, erdöpfel, ertaphel (“mandrake, cucumber, pumpkin, melon”), from Old High German erdapful, erdaphul (“pumpkin, squash, melon”)
hunterdukes 2y ago
Hello, OP here. We didn’t yet have access to a proper critical commentary and did our best with the image captions, although our best was a rather poor job in this case — much trickier than anticipated. I went to the Berlin Staatsbibliothek today for research and new captions will go live tomorrow. (Although even the experts are confused as to what the “Jerusalem artichoke” image is supposed to be — they suggest watermelon or cucumber.)
Goodbichon 2y ago
I see they have updated the post now, showing English translations for all the images. The "erdapfel" one is now displaying as "Possibly watermelon or cucumber": https://publicdomainreview.org/collection/hartlieb-book-of-herbs/ https://publicdomainreview.org/collection/hartlieb-book-of-h...

throwup238 2y ago

It’s a bad translation using a more modern meaning of “erdapfel” instead of a medieval one. Could easily be a very local colloquialism instead of a widespread name. To my eye it looks like a melon or gourd plant. It’s definitely not a tuber (the next drawing shows an underground bulb).

fuzztester 2y ago
Some deductions: >>potato grows in the earth >erdapfel I know a few French words, so I know that potato in French is pomme de terre (fruit of the earth) I am learning German. I know that apfel means apple in German. I know that Erdbeere means strawberry in German. beere sounds like berry. straw sometimes lies on the earth (after it is cut). I just Googled for the word earth in German and it shows erde. so it seems like erdapfel means "earth apple", which sounds like the French "fruit of the earth". how's that for a bit(te) of logical deduction? I feel a bit(te) like a human Prolog interpret-a. now I'll go and finish my Bier(e), which inspired me-a. ;)
- detaro 2y ago
  But it can't have in 1462, when potatoes (and Jerusalem artichokes) weren't known to Europeans yet.
  - throwup238 2y ago
    Yep, they weren't introduced to Europe until the late 16th century: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF00029633 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF00029633 At that time, "erdapfel" meant something else entirely: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erdapfel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erdapfel The reason I think it's a heirloom melon variety is threefold: a) "earth apple" fits because melons grow on the ground, b) there are green melons with yellow and pink stripes/patches, with the same elongated fruit shape, c) vines and leaf shape.
  - fuzztester 2y ago
    You're right. Only after the Columbian Exchange were those plants known to Europe. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbian_exchange https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbian_exchange
- fuzztester 2y ago
  I just googled a bit more and saw this: https://en.m.wikisource.org/wiki/An_Etymological_Dictionary_of_the_German_Language/Annotated/Erdbeere https://en.m.wikisource.org/wiki/An_Etymological_Dictionary_...
- draven 2y ago
  > I know a few French words, so I know that potato in French is pomme de terre (fruit of the earth) "pomme" means apple, so it's even closer to the german etymology.
  - fuzztester 2y ago
    good to know, thanks. joke: from now on, whenever anyone asks what type of computer i have, I will say: pomme! non! merde! meaning: Apple! no! https://www.dictionary.com/browse/merde https://www.dictionary.com/browse/merde ;)
aftoprokrustes 2y ago
If I trust Wikipedia, even today the term "Erdapfel" is used to refer to topinambour in some regions: "Mancherorts in Baden wird Topinambur als Erdapfel bezeichnet." https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topinambur#:~:text=Mancherorts%20in%20Baden%20wird%20Topinambur%20als%20Erdapfel%20bezeichnet https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topinambur#:~:text=Mancherorts.... Topinambour would have been available in the middle ages. Confusion with potato by the modern reader is understandable, as a topinambour does look similar to a potato, and some German dialects (e.g. Swiss dialects) name potatoes "Erdapfel".
- throwup238 2y ago
  > Topinambour would have been available in the middle ages. No, Helianthus tuberosus [1] aka "topinambur" is Jerusalem artichoke which would not have been available at the time. It's a New World crop just like the potato. We're talking about a book written in 1462, before the Columbian exchange. The plant wasn't introduced to Europe until the early 17th century. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helianthus_tuberosus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helianthus_tuberosus

OJFord 2y ago

Wiktionary says of Erdapfel (which OP admittedly with '?' wasn't sure how to translate): > From Middle High German ertapfel, erdapfel, ertöpfel, erdöpfel, ertaphel (“mandrake, cucumber, pumpkin, melon”), from Old High German erdapful, erdaphul (“pumpkin, squash, melon”)

hunterdukes 2y ago

Hello, OP here. We didn’t yet have access to a proper critical commentary and did our best with the image captions, although our best was a rather poor job in this case — much trickier than anticipated. I went to the Berlin Staatsbibliothek today for research and new captions will go live tomorrow. (Although even the experts are confused as to what the “Jerusalem artichoke” image is supposed to be — they suggest watermelon or cucumber.)

Goodbichon 2y ago

I see they have updated the post now, showing English translations for all the images. The "erdapfel" one is now displaying as "Possibly watermelon or cucumber": https://publicdomainreview.org/collection/hartlieb-book-of-herbs/ https://publicdomainreview.org/collection/hartlieb-book-of-h...