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I would posit it’s not a caste system similar to India’s caste system or old school feudalism. Being an outsider definitely plays a part for instance the treatm

I would posit it’s not a caste system similar to India’s caste system or old school feudalism. Being an outsider definitely plays a part for instance the treatment of Italian immigrants. In my experience if you’re part of a certain group you might or will get mistreated but if you’re part of that group and also an outsider oof you’re in for one tortured existence. Which is kind of contradictory because the USA is one of the few places that openly welcomes outsiders (like you don’t see migrants trying to go to China or Russia) but at the same time if you’re deemed persona non grata like for whatever reason the land will mess with your life, health and so on unlike any other place

graemep 2y ago
How is it not a caste system? A caste system can ALSO be hostile to outsiders on an ethnic or religious basis (plenty of examples of both in South Asia!) in addition to the caste system. Feudalism is not a caste system. In a feudal system people can move up and down to some extent, and over generations people can move a lot. It was possible for people to marry to at least some extent. There is no notion of pure blood or pollution. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/228717335_Was_there_ever_a_Ruling_Class_Surnames_and_Social_Mobility_in_England_1200-2009 https://www.researchgate.net/publication/228717335_Was_there...
- gamblor956 2y ago
  In a caste system, your "worth" is decided at birth based on what caste system you are born into, and your opportunities and relationships are determined by that. The US has some of the highest rates of interracial marriages, relationships, etc. in the world. Mobility in America is driven by socioeconomic class, not race, and gender plays a heavy role in educational success in some races (more than race itself), but not others, for various historical reasons. In order to cast U.S. racial relations into a type "caste" system, you'd have to stretch the definition of caste so thin that it wouldn't have any meaning.
  - alan-hn 2y ago
    Rich African Americans are still looked down on by some in comparison to rich whites. There is not as much mobility as you would think
  - graemep 2y ago
    It was historically a caste system though, especially in the South up to the sixties, and there are remnants of that. No doubt it is a weakened caste system, and hopefully dying one, but it still seems present. Americans seem to still, at the least, attach a lot of importance to race, and to classifying people by race. It is seen as fundamental to who people are: a lot of Americans who seem fine with someone self-identifying their gender find it far harder to accept someone self-identifying their race. Why not? A lot of people report assumptions are made on the basis of race. In a lot of conversations I have with Americans about race seem to assume that people are likely to be overtly treated differently on the basis of their appearance. I do not know the US so maybe I am out of date or have read the wrong things but I find it a lot harder to understand the importance Americans (not just racists, but people trying to be anti-racist too) attach to race if I am wrong.
    - ksenzee 2y ago
      > maybe I am out of date or have read the wrong things No, I think you have a better grasp on it than most people outside the US. Americans really want to believe we don’t have a caste system, because it’s antithetical to our origin story and what we feel is true about ourselves, but we absolutely do. So if you listen to us talk, you’ll think we don’t have a caste system. If you watch our actions, you’ll see we still do.
    - rincebrain 2y ago
      If I were to wildly speculate, I might guess that many Americans think of gender as being about presentation and experience, while "race" is almost entirely about shared experience - which, yes, is often informed by reactions to one's appearance, or lack thereof, but that's not the identifying characteristic. So it comes across as similarly distasteful to someone claiming to be "long lost Uncle Eddie", because they saw your family through the glass at a holiday and liked what they saw - since you weren't here for a billion shared little experiences, and there's no claim that you were from the same grandparents or similar, it rings hollow and like you want something from it.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]

graemep 2y ago

How is it not a caste system? A caste system can ALSO be hostile to outsiders on an ethnic or religious basis (plenty of examples of both in South Asia!) in addition to the caste system. Feudalism is not a caste system. In a feudal system people can move up and down to some extent, and over generations people can move a lot. It was possible for people to marry to at least some extent. There is no notion of pure blood or pollution. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/228717335_Was_there_ever_a_Ruling_Class_Surnames_and_Social_Mobility_in_England_1200-2009 https://www.researchgate.net/publication/228717335_Was_there...

gamblor956 2y ago
In a caste system, your "worth" is decided at birth based on what caste system you are born into, and your opportunities and relationships are determined by that. The US has some of the highest rates of interracial marriages, relationships, etc. in the world. Mobility in America is driven by socioeconomic class, not race, and gender plays a heavy role in educational success in some races (more than race itself), but not others, for various historical reasons. In order to cast U.S. racial relations into a type "caste" system, you'd have to stretch the definition of caste so thin that it wouldn't have any meaning.
- alan-hn 2y ago
  Rich African Americans are still looked down on by some in comparison to rich whites. There is not as much mobility as you would think
- graemep 2y ago
  It was historically a caste system though, especially in the South up to the sixties, and there are remnants of that. No doubt it is a weakened caste system, and hopefully dying one, but it still seems present. Americans seem to still, at the least, attach a lot of importance to race, and to classifying people by race. It is seen as fundamental to who people are: a lot of Americans who seem fine with someone self-identifying their gender find it far harder to accept someone self-identifying their race. Why not? A lot of people report assumptions are made on the basis of race. In a lot of conversations I have with Americans about race seem to assume that people are likely to be overtly treated differently on the basis of their appearance. I do not know the US so maybe I am out of date or have read the wrong things but I find it a lot harder to understand the importance Americans (not just racists, but people trying to be anti-racist too) attach to race if I am wrong.
  - ksenzee 2y ago
    > maybe I am out of date or have read the wrong things No, I think you have a better grasp on it than most people outside the US. Americans really want to believe we don’t have a caste system, because it’s antithetical to our origin story and what we feel is true about ourselves, but we absolutely do. So if you listen to us talk, you’ll think we don’t have a caste system. If you watch our actions, you’ll see we still do.
  - rincebrain 2y ago
    If I were to wildly speculate, I might guess that many Americans think of gender as being about presentation and experience, while "race" is almost entirely about shared experience - which, yes, is often informed by reactions to one's appearance, or lack thereof, but that's not the identifying characteristic. So it comes across as similarly distasteful to someone claiming to be "long lost Uncle Eddie", because they saw your family through the glass at a holiday and liked what they saw - since you weren't here for a billion shared little experiences, and there's no claim that you were from the same grandparents or similar, it rings hollow and like you want something from it.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]