7 ms·

Intel's lunar lake laptops won't let you upgrade your RAM. Here's why thats fine

9 points by kyahwill 2y ago

lousken 2y ago
why not LPCAMM?
c0balt 2y ago
I can see the advantage from the manufacturer side but I don't think this will be good for longevity of these devices. In my experience DDR3/4 on laptops is a common component to fail and will often fail before even discs or a CPU. DDR5 is not old enough yet but I would wager this pattern will continue. One can hope their integrated RAM is more durable. It would be a shame to see soldered CPUs being unusable because of RAM failures. This would make repair for old devices even more financially unviable.
ponorin 2y ago
Intel lately has been throwing everything under the sun to see if it sticks: first the heterogeneous P- and E-Cores, then the silicon-on-silicon packaging, unhinged power profile to the point of system instability, and now embedded RAM. Everything, everything except for a significant architectural improvements. They are just being desperate. Desperate because they can't crack the code on improving the fundamental architecture. So they are pushing everything else to their limit and bulldozing over consumer choice and repairability in the process. There's no other explanation. AMD does none of this and still eats Intel for lunch.
superkuh 2y ago
At least it creates jobs for IT from all the problems having systems with too little ram will cause. This already happens with the Apple M series devices. Can't say much else for it.
wakawaka28 2y ago
It's not fine unless you consider your machine disposable. RAM wears out and new software always needs more. Want to collect these machines for posterity? You're out of luck, because they all have even more limited lifespan and can't be fixed.
KingOfCoders 2y ago
Intel learned from Apple. Not many people want to upgrade RAM, but Soc RAM is cheaper and faster - part of the Mx performance over Intel/AMD is from a 3x faster memory access (70gb/sec DDR4/5, 200+gb/sec Mx). "According to Intel, this move will make the RAM use up to 40 percent less power." On top of the performance gains integrated RAM uses less power. On top of these two things, Intel has better margins if they sell the RAM. And while it's not as fast as GPU memory, you can easily have more memory for AI in an unified memory model (64gb e.g.) - or rumored 128gb for Strix Halo. See how Mx is faster, uses less power, is better for AI, and Apple makes more money?
- Dylan16807 2y ago
  > part of the Mx performance over Intel/AMD is from a 3x faster memory access (70gb/sec DDR4/5, 200+gb/sec Mx). With DDR5 I'd say more like 2.4x. And it should be made clear that that's mostly by virtue of fitting the equivalent of four memory channels on the Pro models. The non-Pro models don't see a very big boost. In that context, CAMM stays exciting, because if you design a CPU to support two LPCAMM2 modules you can get 200+GB/s on upgradable memory. Though in a laptop form factor it would be hard to double that again to compete with a Max chip.
- borisk 2y ago
  SoC RAM let's the vendor abuse the user. The 8GB needed to go from 8GB to 16GB on a MacBook Air cost Apple less than $10, but it charges the customer extra $200 for it. Don't see how Apple makes more money is a good thing - it means millions of their clients have less money left.
  - vardump 2y ago
    "on a MacBook Air cost Apple less than $10" I don't think $200 is justified nor do I want to defend Apple... but where do you get 8GB with 100 GB/s bandwidth for $10?
    - zihotki 2y ago
      Am I right that you as a consumer want to get the memory at the price Apple gets it from the fabs? That's a bit silly.
borisk 2y ago
I need 64GB, this Intel new generation will be useless to me. I think Dell XPS is the only laptop with Qualcomm Snapdragon X that offers 64GB currently. I see upgradable RAM as on of the big advantages of x64 laptops over Apple and Qualcomm. Not sure Intel's current strategy to emulate their competitors, rather than play to it's own strong points is a good one.
- xcv123 2y ago
  From the article: "In fact, Intel’s future hardware will offer upgradeable RAM. Jim Johnson, Senior Vice President at Intel, explicitly said about user-upgradeable RAM: “We will offer those options in the future.” He also said that the “next turn of the roadmaps will offer more traditional options.”"
  - rbanffy 2y ago
    Ideally, some RAM on a tight and close bus with high bandwidth is a good thing to have in the CPU package. Xeons have HBM since the Phi alongside motherboard based memory.
- Dylan16807 2y ago
  Are you in the market for a 4+4 core 15 watt CPU to go with your 64GB of memory? This is not a full lineup of chips. This is a very narrow set of parts.
cabirum 2y ago
And still no ECC? And if a memory module has a bad bit somewhere, I have to replace the whole motherboard?
- borisk 2y ago
  DDR5 has a bit of ECC built in, but yeah - one of the major problems that Intel created is using ECC RAM support as a feature to sell their Xeon line of processors and so living 99% of the desktop users without ECC.
  - rstuart4133 2y ago
    > DDR5 has a bit of ECC built in, For me the most important aspect of ECC is not making the memory reliable. It's telling me the RAM is becoming unreliable, which you know because the number of errors detected and corrected is rising. DDR5 ECC does not provide that information. Once you start seeing ECC RAM errors you know it might be the cause of system failures you see. Knowing a specific piece of hardware might be failing is far better than a random crash that might be caused by memory, or the CPU, or a software bug, or PCI bus failure and a zillion other things. HDD SMART is the same thing. Once you see errors from a drive rising you know it won't be long before it fails. One of the negatives of SSD's is you don't get the information, so they fail without warning. That aside, DDR5 ECC is not end to end. It might not be the RAM calls that are failing. It might be getting the bit to the pins on the chip, or the connector, or the memory bus, or the CPU RAM interface. CPU ECC covers all of that.
    - rbanffy 2y ago
      > One of the negatives of SSD's is you don't get the information, so they fail without warning The ones I have here count how much data they have written. This is a reasonable baseline for telling me when to get a replacement.

9 points by kyahwill 2y ago

why not LPCAMM?

I can see the advantage from the manufacturer side but I don't think this will be good for longevity of these devices. In my experience DDR3/4 on laptops is a common component to fail and will often fail before even discs or a CPU. DDR5 is not old enough yet but I would wager this pattern will continue. One can hope their integrated RAM is more durable. It would be a shame to see soldered CPUs being unusable because of RAM failures. This would make repair for old devices even more financially unviable.

ponorin 2y ago

Intel lately has been throwing everything under the sun to see if it sticks: first the heterogeneous P- and E-Cores, then the silicon-on-silicon packaging, unhinged power profile to the point of system instability, and now embedded RAM. Everything, everything except for a significant architectural improvements. They are just being desperate. Desperate because they can't crack the code on improving the fundamental architecture. So they are pushing everything else to their limit and bulldozing over consumer choice and repairability in the process. There's no other explanation. AMD does none of this and still eats Intel for lunch.

superkuh 2y ago

At least it creates jobs for IT from all the problems having systems with too little ram will cause. This already happens with the Apple M series devices. Can't say much else for it.

wakawaka28 2y ago

It's not fine unless you consider your machine disposable. RAM wears out and new software always needs more. Want to collect these machines for posterity? You're out of luck, because they all have even more limited lifespan and can't be fixed.

KingOfCoders 2y ago

Intel learned from Apple. Not many people want to upgrade RAM, but Soc RAM is cheaper and faster - part of the Mx performance over Intel/AMD is from a 3x faster memory access (70gb/sec DDR4/5, 200+gb/sec Mx). "According to Intel, this move will make the RAM use up to 40 percent less power." On top of the performance gains integrated RAM uses less power. On top of these two things, Intel has better margins if they sell the RAM. And while it's not as fast as GPU memory, you can easily have more memory for AI in an unified memory model (64gb e.g.) - or rumored 128gb for Strix Halo. See how Mx is faster, uses less power, is better for AI, and Apple makes more money?

Dylan16807 2y ago
> part of the Mx performance over Intel/AMD is from a 3x faster memory access (70gb/sec DDR4/5, 200+gb/sec Mx). With DDR5 I'd say more like 2.4x. And it should be made clear that that's mostly by virtue of fitting the equivalent of four memory channels on the Pro models. The non-Pro models don't see a very big boost. In that context, CAMM stays exciting, because if you design a CPU to support two LPCAMM2 modules you can get 200+GB/s on upgradable memory. Though in a laptop form factor it would be hard to double that again to compete with a Max chip.
borisk 2y ago
SoC RAM let's the vendor abuse the user. The 8GB needed to go from 8GB to 16GB on a MacBook Air cost Apple less than $10, but it charges the customer extra $200 for it. Don't see how Apple makes more money is a good thing - it means millions of their clients have less money left.
- vardump 2y ago
  "on a MacBook Air cost Apple less than $10" I don't think $200 is justified nor do I want to defend Apple... but where do you get 8GB with 100 GB/s bandwidth for $10?
  - zihotki 2y ago
    Am I right that you as a consumer want to get the memory at the price Apple gets it from the fabs? That's a bit silly.

borisk 2y ago

I need 64GB, this Intel new generation will be useless to me. I think Dell XPS is the only laptop with Qualcomm Snapdragon X that offers 64GB currently. I see upgradable RAM as on of the big advantages of x64 laptops over Apple and Qualcomm. Not sure Intel's current strategy to emulate their competitors, rather than play to it's own strong points is a good one.

xcv123 2y ago
From the article: "In fact, Intel’s future hardware will offer upgradeable RAM. Jim Johnson, Senior Vice President at Intel, explicitly said about user-upgradeable RAM: “We will offer those options in the future.” He also said that the “next turn of the roadmaps will offer more traditional options.”"
- rbanffy 2y ago
  Ideally, some RAM on a tight and close bus with high bandwidth is a good thing to have in the CPU package. Xeons have HBM since the Phi alongside motherboard based memory.
Dylan16807 2y ago
Are you in the market for a 4+4 core 15 watt CPU to go with your 64GB of memory? This is not a full lineup of chips. This is a very narrow set of parts.

cabirum 2y ago

And still no ECC? And if a memory module has a bad bit somewhere, I have to replace the whole motherboard?

borisk 2y ago
DDR5 has a bit of ECC built in, but yeah - one of the major problems that Intel created is using ECC RAM support as a feature to sell their Xeon line of processors and so living 99% of the desktop users without ECC.
- rstuart4133 2y ago
  > DDR5 has a bit of ECC built in, For me the most important aspect of ECC is not making the memory reliable. It's telling me the RAM is becoming unreliable, which you know because the number of errors detected and corrected is rising. DDR5 ECC does not provide that information. Once you start seeing ECC RAM errors you know it might be the cause of system failures you see. Knowing a specific piece of hardware might be failing is far better than a random crash that might be caused by memory, or the CPU, or a software bug, or PCI bus failure and a zillion other things. HDD SMART is the same thing. Once you see errors from a drive rising you know it won't be long before it fails. One of the negatives of SSD's is you don't get the information, so they fail without warning. That aside, DDR5 ECC is not end to end. It might not be the RAM calls that are failing. It might be getting the bit to the pins on the chip, or the connector, or the memory bus, or the CPU RAM interface. CPU ECC covers all of that.
  - rbanffy 2y ago
    > One of the negatives of SSD's is you don't get the information, so they fail without warning The ones I have here count how much data they have written. This is a reasonable baseline for telling me when to get a replacement.