5 ms·

How is it flawed logcally? Seems perfectly correct to me. Although I'd agree it's a bit over-literal. As if the emotional workings of the human mind can be prec

How is it flawed logcally? Seems perfectly correct to me. Although I'd agree it's a bit over-literal. As if the emotional workings of the human mind can be precisely reasoned about (i.e. precisely enough to say "always"). Regardless, I've experienced this effect a lot when writing design docs. Iteration and objective criticism on a tangible thing (a doc) is an extremely effective way to see the problem from all sides.

cryptoz 2y ago
Disclaimer: I'm not OP and I haven't read the full post yet. But the quote above says "If..." and then makes a statement that isn't true and then having a conclusion based on that false premise. I can tell you it isn't true because I can recall countless times in the last few months alone where writing down my ideas has resulted in a muddier thought; lost ideas while writing them down; confusing me and missing some parts; it does not "always make them more precise and more complete". So the rest of the statement is just silly. Sure, sometimes writing down ideas helps clear things up. Most times even. But always?! Definitely not.
wyum 2y ago
The deduction is flawed because the success of one method (thinking with writing) does not necessarily disprove the success of other methods (such as thinking without writing).
- FreakLegion 2y ago
  You're objecting to the premise, not the conclusion*. The deduction is valid for the premise (the part in the 'if'). Well, assuming you accept that an idea that can be "more complete" isn't "fully formed", but I'd say that's definitional. * Although it's not really right to use this kind of language here (premise, conclusion, deduction). It's a casual statement, so I suppose people can somewhat reasonably argue about it, but the assertion is tautological ('if something is incomplete, it isn't fully formed').
- xboxnolifes 2y ago
  The keyword is "always". IF writing about something always improves it, that implies it cannot ever reach full potential without writing about it.
  - card_zero 2y ago
    Or with writing about it. But there's an implicit "if you haven't already written about it". We might wonder what other implicit preconditions there are. Similarly, if walking North always brings you closer to the North Pole, then you can never reach the North Pole without walking North, or at all. But look out for oceans.
guyomes 2y ago
Taking the statement completely out of context, it states : if A implies B, then not A implies not B. This is a logical flaw. The correct statement from a logical point of view is: if A implies B, then not B implies not A. In this case, even if writing down your ideas makes them more precise, there might be other methods that make your ideas more precise. Again this is just the logical point of view, out of context.
- nequo 2y ago
  > Taking the statement completely out of context, it states : if A implies B, then not A implies not B. This is a logical flaw. The statement in TFA is not that though. Instead, it is "if A implies B, then not A implies not C." A: writing about thoughts B: thoughts become more complete C: thoughts are most complete If "A implies B" is true, then it also doesn't matter if other methods also make your ideas more complete, because "A implies B" means that writing would make them even more complete, therefore "not C."
  - guyomes 2y ago
    You're perfectly right. It is indeed perfectly logical then. It could be reformulated like this: if f(A) > f(not A) then f(not A) is not maximal. f: a function indicating how complete the thoughts are. A: writing about thoughts.
  - __0x01 2y ago
    What books can I read to reason like this? EDIT: shortened sentence
    - nequo 2y ago
      This might sound strange but a book on real analysis or topology that walks through proofs could be one.
      - throwaway55533 2y ago
        +1, pg is using a pretty typical argument you see in analysis/topology. If you want to get to real analysis/topology the typical sequence is 1. Logic and Set theory (recommendation: How to Prove It, Velleman) 2. Linear Algebra (don't have a good recommendation) 3a. Real analysis (recommendation: PMA, Rudin) 3b. Topology (recommendation: Topology, Munkres) I'm not sure I'd recommend learning math. It's an extremely expensive skill -- though pretty valuable in the software industry. People who go learn math are generally just drawn to it; you can't stop them even if you wanted to. But be aware, (1) you'll have no one to talk about math with. And (2) you'll be joining a club of all the outcasts in society, including the Unabomber.

cryptoz 2y ago

Disclaimer: I'm not OP and I haven't read the full post yet. But the quote above says "If..." and then makes a statement that isn't true and then having a conclusion based on that false premise. I can tell you it isn't true because I can recall countless times in the last few months alone where writing down my ideas has resulted in a muddier thought; lost ideas while writing them down; confusing me and missing some parts; it does not "always make them more precise and more complete". So the rest of the statement is just silly. Sure, sometimes writing down ideas helps clear things up. Most times even. But always?! Definitely not.

wyum 2y ago

The deduction is flawed because the success of one method (thinking with writing) does not necessarily disprove the success of other methods (such as thinking without writing).

FreakLegion 2y ago
You're objecting to the premise, not the conclusion*. The deduction is valid for the premise (the part in the 'if'). Well, assuming you accept that an idea that can be "more complete" isn't "fully formed", but I'd say that's definitional. * Although it's not really right to use this kind of language here (premise, conclusion, deduction). It's a casual statement, so I suppose people can somewhat reasonably argue about it, but the assertion is tautological ('if something is incomplete, it isn't fully formed').
xboxnolifes 2y ago
The keyword is "always". IF writing about something always improves it, that implies it cannot ever reach full potential without writing about it.
- card_zero 2y ago
  Or with writing about it. But there's an implicit "if you haven't already written about it". We might wonder what other implicit preconditions there are. Similarly, if walking North always brings you closer to the North Pole, then you can never reach the North Pole without walking North, or at all. But look out for oceans.

guyomes 2y ago

Taking the statement completely out of context, it states : if A implies B, then not A implies not B. This is a logical flaw. The correct statement from a logical point of view is: if A implies B, then not B implies not A. In this case, even if writing down your ideas makes them more precise, there might be other methods that make your ideas more precise. Again this is just the logical point of view, out of context.

nequo 2y ago
> Taking the statement completely out of context, it states : if A implies B, then not A implies not B. This is a logical flaw. The statement in TFA is not that though. Instead, it is "if A implies B, then not A implies not C." A: writing about thoughts B: thoughts become more complete C: thoughts are most complete If "A implies B" is true, then it also doesn't matter if other methods also make your ideas more complete, because "A implies B" means that writing would make them even more complete, therefore "not C."
- guyomes 2y ago
  You're perfectly right. It is indeed perfectly logical then. It could be reformulated like this: if f(A) > f(not A) then f(not A) is not maximal. f: a function indicating how complete the thoughts are. A: writing about thoughts.
- __0x01 2y ago
  What books can I read to reason like this? EDIT: shortened sentence
  - nequo 2y ago
    This might sound strange but a book on real analysis or topology that walks through proofs could be one.
    - throwaway55533 2y ago
      +1, pg is using a pretty typical argument you see in analysis/topology. If you want to get to real analysis/topology the typical sequence is 1. Logic and Set theory (recommendation: How to Prove It, Velleman) 2. Linear Algebra (don't have a good recommendation) 3a. Real analysis (recommendation: PMA, Rudin) 3b. Topology (recommendation: Topology, Munkres) I'm not sure I'd recommend learning math. It's an extremely expensive skill -- though pretty valuable in the software industry. People who go learn math are generally just drawn to it; you can't stop them even if you wanted to. But be aware, (1) you'll have no one to talk about math with. And (2) you'll be joining a club of all the outcasts in society, including the Unabomber.