6 ms·

Dear HNers, Gender bias is a touchy subject in these tech blogs and the responses to this (yet another) article are, predictably, dismissive. It was one perso

by ClHans 14y ago

Dear HNers, Gender bias is a touchy subject in these tech blogs and the responses to this (yet another) article are, predictably, dismissive. It was one person's fault, there's no widespread gender bias, the instructor should have things differently, someone has seen women be jerks too, etc. So while there really does seem to be a measurable, observable difference in gender involvement in computing (e.g. in CS enrollments, in working in the industry, etc), these anecdotes always get tossed as not significant. So what I'm wondering, and this is an open question to everyone here: would anything convince you, personally, that gender bias is real, or has a significant measurable effect, or is a problem? Would it take a certain kind of experiment? Some kind of data or analysis? (Or is the answer, "it's not a problem"?) Like, what sorts of articles would people _not_ jump on the bandwagon to tear to shreds? best,

1123581321 14y ago
The article has incorrect premises and arguments in it. It is easy to believe the CS community is more male-friendly and at the same time disagree with the author of this article. Your somewhat common assumption that the commenters here see women in CS without nuance actually slows down integration of women into CS and open source.
irahul 14y ago
> Gender bias is a touchy subject in these tech blogs and the responses to this (yet another) article are, predictably, dismissive. It was one person's fault, there's no widespread gender bias, the instructor should have things differently, someone has seen women be jerks too, etc. It was one person's fault, the instructor should have done things differently, some women are jerks(just like some men). The way you are enumerating says you don't believe they are true, when they are. As for "widespread gender bias", I don't know. I haven't seen it in action myself(I have seen the reverse though - women getting preferential treatment). I am not denying it - I am just saying I am not in a position to confirm or deny. > So while there really does seem to be a measurable, observable difference in gender involvement in computing (e.g. in CS enrollments, in working in the industry, etc), these anecdotes always get tossed as not significant. High school kids get into CS enrollments. I would love to hear from them why they don't go for CS enrollments, rather than hearing speculations. I have heard students complaining about nerdy culture, more demanding courses, low grades, low female to male ratio(circular - if you don't come in, it's going to be always low), anti-social(non-party) students etc. Do you believe girls don't enroll in CS courses because they believe there male counterparts will discriminate against them? If so, can you please provide me some citations. > Like, what sorts of articles would people _not_ jump on the bandwagon to tear to shreds? The sort of articles where the conclusion follows from the antecedents. 1. I volunteered to teach a women's only class. 1.5 It was going well. Some young girl, who was doing well, just giggled and told me she has no idea what she is doing. 2. Some Dave walked in and derailed it. 3. I got angry, but the women just tuned out. 4. Hence, gender bias is real. How does 4 follow from any of it?
overgard 14y ago
Well; it would take more than anecdotal evidence for one thing. It's very easy for sensitive issues to be dominated by emotional anecdotes, to the point where only group think is tolerated and any sort of valid challenge is labeled. I often wish as a community we could use Crocker's rules ( http://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/Crocker%27s_rules http://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/Crocker%27s_rules ) for this kind of thing. It would make for more interesting discussions. Anyway, I don't think people pick apart these blog posts because they're unwilling to accept there's a "gender bias" (whatever that actually means). Rather they pick these posts apart because there are very obvious holes in the original posts' reasoning. In this case, it's that because some guy was vaguely an overcompetitive jerk, somehow that means we need to isolate the sexes. Because apparently women are incapable of being overcompetitive jerks, and it (obviously) has to be a male/female dynamic. That's kind of a leap! Here's the other thing, and this is kind of a tangent, but a theme I see with a lot of these blog posts isn't that someone was actively hostile, but rather, that someone did something "offensive". With "offensive" ranging from things that are obviously very unprofessional to incredibly tame things that someone just didn't like. And to that I'd just say this: its your choice to be offended by things. And its your choice how you react to that. I've been "offended" by many things other programmers have said, but I don't go "well programming isn't for me!". I just think less of those people. I don't think female sensibilities are so frail that they aren't by and large the same way.
- whateverer 14y ago
  That was hilarious, man. Thanks for that. Oh, wait, it was serious?! Well now, how are you going to map this issue to something which isn't, in the end, anecdotes, since it pertains to human emotional responses? Are you asking those ethereal (probably fake, as you said, who even knows what this gender bias thing means?) other people to come up with a scale where they have to put it in 1-to-ten how belittled they felt? Have you stopped to think of why these kinds of posts are held up to such scrutiny in contrast to, say, posts about other, not-related to gender, and thus mostly affecting men (this last point shouldn't need explanation), matters? Like, bad experiences with VCs or age discrimination and some such? I would hazard a guess that the distinction is not due to something very rational, unless you get very cynical and paranoid. Anyway... > Because apparently women are incapable of being overcompetitive jerks, and it (obviously) has to be a male/female dynamic. It sort of is if its impact is mostly on women, and the behavior is mostly accused on men. Yes, this last point would require something more akin to actual statistics to be turned into the reason for some sort of castigation on men in general, but I haven't seen any of that as of now, really. Unless you count people feeling personally attacked by the existence of this discussion, of course. > Here's the other thing, and this is kind of a tangent, but a theme I see with a lot of these blog posts isn't that someone was actively hostile, but rather, that someone did something "offensive". [...] Well, we are quite glad that none of these problems affect you, but this conversation wasn't about you in particular, was it?
microarchitect 14y ago
I'm glad you brought this up. I suspect that someone is going to pipe up and say we need more than "just anecdotal evidence" or something similar. On the face of it, this would seem like a reasonable reply. Except, I remember when PG said something bizarre about writing being a more important skill than speaking based on his anecdotal experiences of listening to good presenters (!) and everybody here loved it. Certainly nobody asked for data and the most upvoted comments weren't critical of the article. Pretty much the same thing happened when patio11 wrote a huge document with "advice" for young engineers which as far as I could make out, were based on little more than his experiences making a few bucks selling software on the internet. He too had bizarre advice; for instance, don't go to graduate school. I'll be the first to admit that I don't know if this is good or bad advice. But, even if you buy into the premise of many HNers that anything other than a billion-dollar "exit" is a failure, going to grad school certainly worked out well for Sergei and Larry. Again, I don't remember any comments asking for data supporting patio11's assertions. Everybody just lapped it up. Now I'm not trying to diss either PG or patio11. These guys have been "successful" and perhaps what they have to say could be useful to others here. That said, I've been watching threads on gender issues on HN for about two years now, and I definitely believe that these articles are held to different standards than all the other articles here. I also see highly upvoted ragingly misogynistic articles. I remember one by a east-european developer literally saying that he would never hire women because they could potentially get pregnant (you can't make this shit up!). I'm sad to say nobody asked for data in that instance either and instead circlejerked about how women are not cut out for the startup lifestyle. Sorry about the long rant, but I'll conclude by saying that it was these startling examples of misogyny and sexism over here that make me reluctant to comment any more. I actually want to delete my account but it turns out you need to e-mail PG for this and even then your comments won't be deleted. If I'd known about this when I signed up, I would never have made an account.
Tichy 14y ago
I would guess a lot of developers are self taught. At least for me it is somewhat difficult to believe that there should be gender bias in sitting down alone with a book and a computer. Perhaps a lot of people who are also self taught feel in a similar way, hence the typical reactions on HN.
- technomancy 14y ago
  "Self taught" is a relative term. Very few people learn in pure isolation; most of the time it means "not in a classroom." Mailing lists, friends, and IRC are extremely helpful to learners, and thus social dynamics nearly always have a role to play.
  - Tichy 14y ago
    In the old days it used to be socially awkward kids who found solace in using the computer, because nobody would bother them there. Now it is being turned on it's head and the bullied kids are the bullies who mob against women? It doesn't make that much sense, imo.
whateverer 14y ago
Using the vile arts of Necromancy, I bestow upon this dead post a grotesque mockery of life! Edit: Well now I'm dead too. Should've been wiser to just copy+paste a dead comment. Still, this is stupid. - points by microarchitect I'm glad you brought this up. I suspect that someone is going to pipe up and say we need more than "just anecdotal evidence" or something similar. On the face of it, this would seem like a reasonable reply. Except, I remember when PG said something bizarre about writing being a more important skill than speaking based on his anecdotal experiences of listening to good presenters (!) and everybody here loved it. Certainly nobody asked for data and the most upvoted comments weren't critical of the article. Pretty much the same thing happened when patio11 wrote a huge document with "advice" for young engineers which as far as I could make out, were based on little more than his experiences making a few bucks selling software on the internet. He too had bizarre advice; for instance, don't go to graduate school. I'll be the first to admit that I don't know if this is good or bad advice. But, even if you buy into the premise of many HNers that anything other than a billion-dollar "exit" is a failure, going to grad school certainly worked out well for Sergei and Larry. Again, I don't remember any comments asking for data supporting patio11's assertions. Everybody just lapped it up. Now I'm not trying to diss either PG or patio11. These guys have been "successful" and perhaps what they have to say could be useful to others here. That said, I've been watching threads on gender issues on HN for about two years now, and I definitely believe that these articles are held to different standards than all the other articles here. I also see highly upvoted ragingly misogynistic articles. I remember one by a east-european developer literally saying that he would never hire women because they could potentially get pregnant (you can't make this shit up!). I'm sad to say nobody asked for data in that instance either and instead circlejerked about how women are not cut out for the startup lifestyle. Sorry about the long rant, but I'll conclude by saying that it was these startling examples of misogyny and sexism over here that make me reluctant to comment any more. I actually want to delete my account but it turns out you need to e-mail PG for this and even then your comments won't be deleted. If I'd known about this when I signed up, I would never have made an account.
bermanoid 14y ago
So what I'm wondering, and this is an open question to everyone here: would anything convince you, personally, that gender bias is real, or has a significant measurable effect, or is a problem? Would it take a certain kind of experiment? Some kind of data or analysis? (Or is the answer, "it's not a problem"?) Like, what sorts of articles would people _not_ jump on the bandwagon to tear to shreds? Yeah, this is extremely simple, and I've asked for this probably a dozen times in various forums without receiving any answer whatsoever, let alone a satisfactory one: show me some indication that discrimination is worse in tech than any other field. Not just that the gender ratio is skewed, or evidence for that, but that the behavior you'd like to blame that on is actually worse enough here than in other fields to justify the massive gender gap here. That should be easy, right? If the reason women don't go into tech at a 4:1 ratio is that all of us fucktard guys are assholes, it should be easy to pull numerical evidence of that fact, I'd think. The wage gap should be more pronounced than in most fields, right? Or the number of sexual assault/harassment incidents per woman should be higher than in other fields, surely? Ok, or maybe more women leave the workforce in this field per year than in others, presumably because of the horrible atmosphere that us piggish guys create? Don't just tell me that it's hard for women in tech, that could merely be because this is a hot button issue and there are few women in tech; show me that it's worse than it is elsewhere, in all of those other fields where women have their asses grabbed every day yet still keep on keeping on, without (for instance) blog posts blaming the lack of women in waitressing on the harassment that waitresses get from men in the field. Give me some explanation for the fact that the harassment my girlfriend receives every day in retail, including from her male boss (and this is not unusual, I know dozens of women in retail), beats out the worst of the women-in-tech harassment horror stories, yet her field is better than 50/50 women to men. I need something, because to me it seems like there's something a lot more important and powerful going on than mere sexism, which is everywhere and still doesn't keep women from taking jobs.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]

by ClHans 14y ago

1123581321 14y ago

The article has incorrect premises and arguments in it. It is easy to believe the CS community is more male-friendly and at the same time disagree with the author of this article. Your somewhat common assumption that the commenters here see women in CS without nuance actually slows down integration of women into CS and open source.

irahul 14y ago

> Gender bias is a touchy subject in these tech blogs and the responses to this (yet another) article are, predictably, dismissive. It was one person's fault, there's no widespread gender bias, the instructor should have things differently, someone has seen women be jerks too, etc. It was one person's fault, the instructor should have done things differently, some women are jerks(just like some men). The way you are enumerating says you don't believe they are true, when they are. As for "widespread gender bias", I don't know. I haven't seen it in action myself(I have seen the reverse though - women getting preferential treatment). I am not denying it - I am just saying I am not in a position to confirm or deny. > So while there really does seem to be a measurable, observable difference in gender involvement in computing (e.g. in CS enrollments, in working in the industry, etc), these anecdotes always get tossed as not significant. High school kids get into CS enrollments. I would love to hear from them why they don't go for CS enrollments, rather than hearing speculations. I have heard students complaining about nerdy culture, more demanding courses, low grades, low female to male ratio(circular - if you don't come in, it's going to be always low), anti-social(non-party) students etc. Do you believe girls don't enroll in CS courses because they believe there male counterparts will discriminate against them? If so, can you please provide me some citations. > Like, what sorts of articles would people _not_ jump on the bandwagon to tear to shreds? The sort of articles where the conclusion follows from the antecedents. 1. I volunteered to teach a women's only class. 1.5 It was going well. Some young girl, who was doing well, just giggled and told me she has no idea what she is doing. 2. Some Dave walked in and derailed it. 3. I got angry, but the women just tuned out. 4. Hence, gender bias is real. How does 4 follow from any of it?

overgard 14y ago

Well; it would take more than anecdotal evidence for one thing. It's very easy for sensitive issues to be dominated by emotional anecdotes, to the point where only group think is tolerated and any sort of valid challenge is labeled. I often wish as a community we could use Crocker's rules ( http://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/Crocker%27s_rules http://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/Crocker%27s_rules ) for this kind of thing. It would make for more interesting discussions. Anyway, I don't think people pick apart these blog posts because they're unwilling to accept there's a "gender bias" (whatever that actually means). Rather they pick these posts apart because there are very obvious holes in the original posts' reasoning. In this case, it's that because some guy was vaguely an overcompetitive jerk, somehow that means we need to isolate the sexes. Because apparently women are incapable of being overcompetitive jerks, and it (obviously) has to be a male/female dynamic. That's kind of a leap! Here's the other thing, and this is kind of a tangent, but a theme I see with a lot of these blog posts isn't that someone was actively hostile, but rather, that someone did something "offensive". With "offensive" ranging from things that are obviously very unprofessional to incredibly tame things that someone just didn't like. And to that I'd just say this: its your choice to be offended by things. And its your choice how you react to that. I've been "offended" by many things other programmers have said, but I don't go "well programming isn't for me!". I just think less of those people. I don't think female sensibilities are so frail that they aren't by and large the same way.

whateverer 14y ago
That was hilarious, man. Thanks for that. Oh, wait, it was serious?! Well now, how are you going to map this issue to something which isn't, in the end, anecdotes, since it pertains to human emotional responses? Are you asking those ethereal (probably fake, as you said, who even knows what this gender bias thing means?) other people to come up with a scale where they have to put it in 1-to-ten how belittled they felt? Have you stopped to think of why these kinds of posts are held up to such scrutiny in contrast to, say, posts about other, not-related to gender, and thus mostly affecting men (this last point shouldn't need explanation), matters? Like, bad experiences with VCs or age discrimination and some such? I would hazard a guess that the distinction is not due to something very rational, unless you get very cynical and paranoid. Anyway... > Because apparently women are incapable of being overcompetitive jerks, and it (obviously) has to be a male/female dynamic. It sort of is if its impact is mostly on women, and the behavior is mostly accused on men. Yes, this last point would require something more akin to actual statistics to be turned into the reason for some sort of castigation on men in general, but I haven't seen any of that as of now, really. Unless you count people feeling personally attacked by the existence of this discussion, of course. > Here's the other thing, and this is kind of a tangent, but a theme I see with a lot of these blog posts isn't that someone was actively hostile, but rather, that someone did something "offensive". [...] Well, we are quite glad that none of these problems affect you, but this conversation wasn't about you in particular, was it?

microarchitect 14y ago

I'm glad you brought this up. I suspect that someone is going to pipe up and say we need more than "just anecdotal evidence" or something similar. On the face of it, this would seem like a reasonable reply. Except, I remember when PG said something bizarre about writing being a more important skill than speaking based on his anecdotal experiences of listening to good presenters (!) and everybody here loved it. Certainly nobody asked for data and the most upvoted comments weren't critical of the article. Pretty much the same thing happened when patio11 wrote a huge document with "advice" for young engineers which as far as I could make out, were based on little more than his experiences making a few bucks selling software on the internet. He too had bizarre advice; for instance, don't go to graduate school. I'll be the first to admit that I don't know if this is good or bad advice. But, even if you buy into the premise of many HNers that anything other than a billion-dollar "exit" is a failure, going to grad school certainly worked out well for Sergei and Larry. Again, I don't remember any comments asking for data supporting patio11's assertions. Everybody just lapped it up. Now I'm not trying to diss either PG or patio11. These guys have been "successful" and perhaps what they have to say could be useful to others here. That said, I've been watching threads on gender issues on HN for about two years now, and I definitely believe that these articles are held to different standards than all the other articles here. I also see highly upvoted ragingly misogynistic articles. I remember one by a east-european developer literally saying that he would never hire women because they could potentially get pregnant (you can't make this shit up!). I'm sad to say nobody asked for data in that instance either and instead circlejerked about how women are not cut out for the startup lifestyle. Sorry about the long rant, but I'll conclude by saying that it was these startling examples of misogyny and sexism over here that make me reluctant to comment any more. I actually want to delete my account but it turns out you need to e-mail PG for this and even then your comments won't be deleted. If I'd known about this when I signed up, I would never have made an account.

Tichy 14y ago

I would guess a lot of developers are self taught. At least for me it is somewhat difficult to believe that there should be gender bias in sitting down alone with a book and a computer. Perhaps a lot of people who are also self taught feel in a similar way, hence the typical reactions on HN.

technomancy 14y ago
"Self taught" is a relative term. Very few people learn in pure isolation; most of the time it means "not in a classroom." Mailing lists, friends, and IRC are extremely helpful to learners, and thus social dynamics nearly always have a role to play.
- Tichy 14y ago
  In the old days it used to be socially awkward kids who found solace in using the computer, because nobody would bother them there. Now it is being turned on it's head and the bullied kids are the bullies who mob against women? It doesn't make that much sense, imo.

whateverer 14y ago

Using the vile arts of Necromancy, I bestow upon this dead post a grotesque mockery of life! Edit: Well now I'm dead too. Should've been wiser to just copy+paste a dead comment. Still, this is stupid. - points by microarchitect I'm glad you brought this up. I suspect that someone is going to pipe up and say we need more than "just anecdotal evidence" or something similar. On the face of it, this would seem like a reasonable reply. Except, I remember when PG said something bizarre about writing being a more important skill than speaking based on his anecdotal experiences of listening to good presenters (!) and everybody here loved it. Certainly nobody asked for data and the most upvoted comments weren't critical of the article. Pretty much the same thing happened when patio11 wrote a huge document with "advice" for young engineers which as far as I could make out, were based on little more than his experiences making a few bucks selling software on the internet. He too had bizarre advice; for instance, don't go to graduate school. I'll be the first to admit that I don't know if this is good or bad advice. But, even if you buy into the premise of many HNers that anything other than a billion-dollar "exit" is a failure, going to grad school certainly worked out well for Sergei and Larry. Again, I don't remember any comments asking for data supporting patio11's assertions. Everybody just lapped it up. Now I'm not trying to diss either PG or patio11. These guys have been "successful" and perhaps what they have to say could be useful to others here. That said, I've been watching threads on gender issues on HN for about two years now, and I definitely believe that these articles are held to different standards than all the other articles here. I also see highly upvoted ragingly misogynistic articles. I remember one by a east-european developer literally saying that he would never hire women because they could potentially get pregnant (you can't make this shit up!). I'm sad to say nobody asked for data in that instance either and instead circlejerked about how women are not cut out for the startup lifestyle. Sorry about the long rant, but I'll conclude by saying that it was these startling examples of misogyny and sexism over here that make me reluctant to comment any more. I actually want to delete my account but it turns out you need to e-mail PG for this and even then your comments won't be deleted. If I'd known about this when I signed up, I would never have made an account.

bermanoid 14y ago

So what I'm wondering, and this is an open question to everyone here: would anything convince you, personally, that gender bias is real, or has a significant measurable effect, or is a problem? Would it take a certain kind of experiment? Some kind of data or analysis? (Or is the answer, "it's not a problem"?) Like, what sorts of articles would people _not_ jump on the bandwagon to tear to shreds? Yeah, this is extremely simple, and I've asked for this probably a dozen times in various forums without receiving any answer whatsoever, let alone a satisfactory one: show me some indication that discrimination is worse in tech than any other field. Not just that the gender ratio is skewed, or evidence for that, but that the behavior you'd like to blame that on is actually worse enough here than in other fields to justify the massive gender gap here. That should be easy, right? If the reason women don't go into tech at a 4:1 ratio is that all of us fucktard guys are assholes, it should be easy to pull numerical evidence of that fact, I'd think. The wage gap should be more pronounced than in most fields, right? Or the number of sexual assault/harassment incidents per woman should be higher than in other fields, surely? Ok, or maybe more women leave the workforce in this field per year than in others, presumably because of the horrible atmosphere that us piggish guys create? Don't just tell me that it's hard for women in tech, that could merely be because this is a hot button issue and there are few women in tech; show me that it's worse than it is elsewhere, in all of those other fields where women have their asses grabbed every day yet still keep on keeping on, without (for instance) blog posts blaming the lack of women in waitressing on the harassment that waitresses get from men in the field. Give me some explanation for the fact that the harassment my girlfriend receives every day in retail, including from her male boss (and this is not unusual, I know dozens of women in retail), beats out the worst of the women-in-tech harassment horror stories, yet her field is better than 50/50 women to men. I need something, because to me it seems like there's something a lot more important and powerful going on than mere sexism, which is everywhere and still doesn't keep women from taking jobs.

deleted 14y ago
[deleted]