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“There are only two kinds of languages: the ones people complain about and the ones nobody uses.” - Bjarne Stroustrup Not disagreeing that C++ is awful in a lo

“There are only two kinds of languages: the ones people complain about and the ones nobody uses.” - Bjarne Stroustrup Not disagreeing that C++ is awful in a lot of ways and super difficult though. But I still weirdly like it, personally. I find it a fun challenge/puzzle to work with.

zarathustreal 2y ago
I find it annoying to have to solve a puzzle to make progress solving my intended puzzle (i.e. whatever I’m computing)
School-Cotton 2y ago
I think we can say Rust is beyond the “nobody uses” stage by now, and it’s much simpler and easier than C++. (And people who use it tend to like it, proving Bjarne wrong).
- fiddlerwoaroof 2y ago
  Or, because there’s so many languages around now, they just use something else. I really don’t like working with Rust myself and so I use other languages.
- saurik 2y ago
  I'm sorry; you think people don't complain about Rust? There are tons of articles posted here from people complaining about Rust in various ways. Bjarne wasn't saying whether most people like it... that's orthogonal: I actually like C++, yet I have been complaining about it--at times quite bitterly--since before it was even standardized!
  - tomjakubowski 2y ago
    Indeed, I am a huge proponent of Rust and have been using it since before 1.0 (even contributed to it, in the past) -- and I complain about Rust a lot, too. Trying to restate Bjarne's point here: if I wasn't using Rust, then I wouldn't have any reason to complain about it.
- alex_lav 2y ago
  Saying people complain about something is not the same as saying nobody likes it…
- dgfitz 2y ago
  Rust is neither simple nor easy. Full stop.
  - School-Cotton 2y ago
    Where did I say it was?
    - dgfitz 2y ago
      Well you did say: it’s much simpler and easier than C++ And if the basis of c++ is c with classes, you’re horribly incorrect. C is a small language, easy to understand and hard to master. Rust is fucking miserable to understand, and as such, hard to master. Why are you being pedantic?
      - School-Cotton 2y ago
        C++ isn't "C with classes" and hasn't been for years. Yes, Rust is bigger and more complicated than C, but much less so than C++. > Why are you being pedantic? I'm not. I'm making a real point: Rust is much simpler and easier than C++, so the spirit of Bjarne's quote, which is that for a language to become popular it necessarily has to have as many drawbacks as C++, is wrong.
      - smrq 2y ago
        "Rust is more complicated than C++" is a pretty hot take.
diffxx 2y ago
I truly loathe that quote. It is a tautology that is used to deflect legitimate criticism.
- RogerL 2y ago
  And it is not true (for any reasonable reading of the quote). There are very popular languages that don't get the deserved hate that C++ does. Sure, Python is slow, packaging/versioning is painful, but it is nothing like C++ complaints. I mean, a standard (and stupid IMO) interview question is rate your C++ expertise from 1-10, and if you answer more than about 5-6 you get bounced for lying or not recognizing your limitations, while they gleefully point out Stroustrup wouldn't answer 9-10.
  - wredue 2y ago
    I mean. Python: Bolted on, very terrible OO that should never be touched Some of the most batshit insane ideas of encapsulation anyone has ever seen Some of the most batshit insane return rules anyone has ever seen Encouraged inconsistency from the language in the form of functions like “Len” that are added because sometimes someone feels it reads better? Encouraged unwinding exceptions as regular flow control (lol. Yikes) It is nearly universally agreed that Python has significant code management issues as code bases scale This is all ignoring debates of fundamental typing issues. Personally, I hate what Python does, but some people seem to prefer it. Let us not pretend Python doesn’t have some language problems on top of its tooling problems.
    - gpderetta 2y ago
      You forgot "it is so slow you might be faster with pen and paper".
    - nottorp 2y ago
      > It is nearly universally agreed that Python has significant code management issues as code bases scale That's the worst part. But you have to agree it's the best for throwing small sized glue code around.
catlifeonmars 2y ago
I feel that if the language is a challenge to work with, it better give you your money’s worth. In 2024, there are plenty of other languages with better ROI, if you want a challenge. In any case, I think the primary goal of any programming language is to get out of your way and let you tackle more interesting problems related to the problem domain that led you to start writing a program in the first place.
nottorp 2y ago
> a fun challenge/puzzle to work with You're basically saying the language gets in the way of solving your problem :)

zarathustreal 2y ago

I find it annoying to have to solve a puzzle to make progress solving my intended puzzle (i.e. whatever I’m computing)

School-Cotton 2y ago

I think we can say Rust is beyond the “nobody uses” stage by now, and it’s much simpler and easier than C++. (And people who use it tend to like it, proving Bjarne wrong).

fiddlerwoaroof 2y ago
Or, because there’s so many languages around now, they just use something else. I really don’t like working with Rust myself and so I use other languages.
saurik 2y ago
I'm sorry; you think people don't complain about Rust? There are tons of articles posted here from people complaining about Rust in various ways. Bjarne wasn't saying whether most people like it... that's orthogonal: I actually like C++, yet I have been complaining about it--at times quite bitterly--since before it was even standardized!
- tomjakubowski 2y ago
  Indeed, I am a huge proponent of Rust and have been using it since before 1.0 (even contributed to it, in the past) -- and I complain about Rust a lot, too. Trying to restate Bjarne's point here: if I wasn't using Rust, then I wouldn't have any reason to complain about it.
alex_lav 2y ago
Saying people complain about something is not the same as saying nobody likes it…
dgfitz 2y ago
Rust is neither simple nor easy. Full stop.
- School-Cotton 2y ago
  Where did I say it was?
  - dgfitz 2y ago
    Well you did say: it’s much simpler and easier than C++ And if the basis of c++ is c with classes, you’re horribly incorrect. C is a small language, easy to understand and hard to master. Rust is fucking miserable to understand, and as such, hard to master. Why are you being pedantic?
    - School-Cotton 2y ago
      C++ isn't "C with classes" and hasn't been for years. Yes, Rust is bigger and more complicated than C, but much less so than C++. > Why are you being pedantic? I'm not. I'm making a real point: Rust is much simpler and easier than C++, so the spirit of Bjarne's quote, which is that for a language to become popular it necessarily has to have as many drawbacks as C++, is wrong.
    - smrq 2y ago
      "Rust is more complicated than C++" is a pretty hot take.

diffxx 2y ago

I truly loathe that quote. It is a tautology that is used to deflect legitimate criticism.

RogerL 2y ago
And it is not true (for any reasonable reading of the quote). There are very popular languages that don't get the deserved hate that C++ does. Sure, Python is slow, packaging/versioning is painful, but it is nothing like C++ complaints. I mean, a standard (and stupid IMO) interview question is rate your C++ expertise from 1-10, and if you answer more than about 5-6 you get bounced for lying or not recognizing your limitations, while they gleefully point out Stroustrup wouldn't answer 9-10.
- wredue 2y ago
  I mean. Python: Bolted on, very terrible OO that should never be touched Some of the most batshit insane ideas of encapsulation anyone has ever seen Some of the most batshit insane return rules anyone has ever seen Encouraged inconsistency from the language in the form of functions like “Len” that are added because sometimes someone feels it reads better? Encouraged unwinding exceptions as regular flow control (lol. Yikes) It is nearly universally agreed that Python has significant code management issues as code bases scale This is all ignoring debates of fundamental typing issues. Personally, I hate what Python does, but some people seem to prefer it. Let us not pretend Python doesn’t have some language problems on top of its tooling problems.
  - gpderetta 2y ago
    You forgot "it is so slow you might be faster with pen and paper".
  - nottorp 2y ago
    > It is nearly universally agreed that Python has significant code management issues as code bases scale That's the worst part. But you have to agree it's the best for throwing small sized glue code around.

catlifeonmars 2y ago

I feel that if the language is a challenge to work with, it better give you your money’s worth. In 2024, there are plenty of other languages with better ROI, if you want a challenge. In any case, I think the primary goal of any programming language is to get out of your way and let you tackle more interesting problems related to the problem domain that led you to start writing a program in the first place.

nottorp 2y ago

> a fun challenge/puzzle to work with You're basically saying the language gets in the way of solving your problem :)