5 ms·

This debate seems to conflate two or three different issues. 1. Use of phones in classrooms 2. Having phones present in schools, but unused 3. The impact of so

by omh 2y ago

This debate seems to conflate two or three different issues. 1. Use of phones in classrooms 2. Having phones present in schools, but unused 3. The impact of social media on schoolchildren (1) is undeniably bad and should be banned everywhere. (2) raises some issues. I don't want (1) but I would like my child to have a phone for the journey to and from school. And a smartphone is much better at this than a dumb phone (group chats are really good!) (3) is a concern but it seems almost totally unrelated to the other issues. The children who are banned from having a phone at school will use the same social media when they're at home and schools will still have to deal with bullying. Our school current bans (1) and is consulting on more bans. But from parent discussions it feels like both the school and parents are mixing up these issues and just coming back with "phones are bad".

superkuh 2y ago
It's worse than that. The meme is now the extremely vague and dangerous "screens are bad".
- DiggyJohnson 2y ago
  But in general I believe this is true. I don't think it's as vague as you think it is. I'm not sure I would agree with "dangerous", but definitely "unhealthy".
peppertree 2y ago
Apple should jump ahead of the problem and allow schools to control screen time and focus modes.
- martin-adams 2y ago
  The side effect may be that kids start asking for Android phones which would be the exact opposite of what Apple wants
- Workaccount2 2y ago
  The last thing Apple is going to do is put a bad taste in the mouths of it's most obedient golden geese. Apple stock would probably halve if kids stopped socially shaming each other into buying iPhones.
- duxup 2y ago
  First thing I would do is to wonder how I could enforce that ... for fun and games on others. And really if we're talking about having to enroll a device into some sort of managed device system, schools don't have the time or manpower to manage tracking every kid's phone that is in the school. And if we're talking about something you don't actively choose to enroll, we're back to my fun and games.
- omh 2y ago
  There is a potential clash here between control and privacy. A few years ago Apple blocked[1] some parental control apps because "they put users’ privacy and security at risk" This actually came up with our school. They tried to use an app to control student phones but it was fundamentally limited by these Apple restrictions. [1] https://www.apple.com/uk/newsroom/2019/04/the-facts-about-parental-control-apps/ https://www.apple.com/uk/newsroom/2019/04/the-facts-about-pa...
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
andrewla 2y ago
Well said! This is the same problem I have [1] with the messaging around this sort of thing and I don't know why people can't back up and figure out a more consistent approach to these separate issues. One thing I hear a lot from parents of middle school and high school children (mine are just entering this domain) is that there's a deeper problem of teachers losing control of students -- even when they have these policies, the teachers and administrators are unable or unwilling to enforce them. I don't know what the solution to this is, though. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40718848 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40718848
- red_admiral 2y ago
  > teachers losing control of students Outside very "leafy suburb" areas, this was a problem long before smartphones existed.
- NegativeLatency 2y ago
  Smaller class sizes couldn’t hurt
duxup 2y ago
The problem with the phones and social media is bad discussion is that ... school's can't fix that. It's just too far outside their ability to control.
VyseofArcadia 2y ago
> But from parent discussions it feels like both the school and parents are mixing up these issues and just coming back with "phones are bad". Always seems to boil down this way. There is no place for nuanced discussion in US school policy. "Zero tolerance" was just a crystallization of existing all-or-nothing trends.
eaurouge 2y ago
> group chats are really good Does your kid need group chats when they're in school with their mates?
- pjlegato 2y ago
  Moreover, when a kid is perpetually glued to a screen absorbed in a group chat, they are much less likely to interact with others who are physically around them and ever develop any actual mates.
sandworm101 2y ago
>> 1. Use of phones in classrooms ... is undeniably bad and should be banned everywhere. I disagree. For a few years I taught a university class and very much appreciated the kids having their phones in class. In discussions I would often task someone with looking up or confirming some pertinent fact or law. They would usually use their laptops but I didn't much care whether the used their phones. Students having ready access to information can be useful in a classroom.
- arp242 2y ago
  This isn't really about university classes but elementary school and high school, and no one denied that phones can't be useful on occasion – just that the downsides outweigh the upsides.
  - sandworm101 2y ago
    And many highschoolers are just one summer vacation away from a university classroom. Imho a great many highschool seniors are better behaved and take classroom time much more seriously than the average first-year uni student. We should not ball all kids together, as would happen under any total ban on a particular tech.
arp242 2y ago
I don't understand (2); I (and probably you, too) never had a phone going to school, or playing outside, or doing most other things, and this was fine. If you really need to get in touch for the rare emergency that will probably never happen you can just ring the school. I sometimes see parents talk about not being in contact 24/7 is like [1]. On a practical level, "no phones at all" is just so much easier to enforce. [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJP4dr_mioA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJP4dr_mioA
- omh 2y ago
  I agree that it would be fine to not have phones - we'd all cope. But when my daughter hasn't got home on time if I can check her GPS and see that she's in the park then I can relax a little. If she needs to say she's staying out late, using a group chat to let the whole family know is easier than trying to phone mum, then dad, then grandma. Or she can include a photo showing how much fun she's having. My life is richer because of communication on things like family group chats. It would be a shame to throw the baby out with the bathwater and lose that
  - pjlegato 2y ago
    "Surveillance parenting" -- which is "helicopter parenting" magnified through technological tools the Stasi could only dream of -- seems likely to foster long-term dependence and anxiety that far outweigh the positive effects. Yes, it's OK to not know exactly where a responsible older child is down to centimeter-resolution lat/lon coordinates at all times. Most humans, including most alive today, lived like that for all of history.
  - arp242 2y ago
    Some of that is rather different than "I would like my child to have a phone for the journey to and from school" from your previous comment mentioned though. I'm just saying it's fine to send your kid to school without a phone. I didn't say anything about group chats in general or (3) from your post or anything else.
  - DiggyJohnson 2y ago
pjlegato 2y ago
The fact that many people now develop anxiety if unable to use a phone for even a very short time is a part of the problem. The phone has become a pseudo-appendage for most people now. Even those who spent most of their lives blissfully phone-free quickly internalized the need for connectivity. Raising children from a young age to expect and demand access to phone connectivity at all times is making this problem much worse. No, you do not need to have a phone at all times "for emergencies" that almost never happen. The negative effects of perpetual connectivity are far, far worse. Almost all humans (including those alive today) managed just fine to live life without a perpetual phone link. Teach children to do the same. The phone is a nice-to-have, not a necessity to merely venture out of the house on a routine trip to school and back.
- sigmar 2y ago
  >No, you do not need to have a phone at all times "for emergencies" that almost never happen. Almost never happen? There have been 464 school shootings in the US since 2010. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_shootings_in_the_United_States_(2000%E2%80%93present) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_shootings_in_th...
  - complaintdept 2y ago
    And probably none of them were hindered because students had their phones.
  - pjlegato 2y ago
    Yes, that is "almost never" in a country with 340,000,000 people. Besides which, "having access to a cellphone" did not alter the outcome at all in those tragic incidents.
    - accrual 2y ago
      > Besides which, "having access to a cellphone" did not alter the outcome at all in those tragic incidents. Disagree. Being able to communicate to your family or emergency services that a shooting is happening and/or that you are safe or not is invaluable.

by omh 2y ago

superkuh 2y ago

It's worse than that. The meme is now the extremely vague and dangerous "screens are bad".

DiggyJohnson 2y ago
But in general I believe this is true. I don't think it's as vague as you think it is. I'm not sure I would agree with "dangerous", but definitely "unhealthy".

peppertree 2y ago

Apple should jump ahead of the problem and allow schools to control screen time and focus modes.

martin-adams 2y ago
The side effect may be that kids start asking for Android phones which would be the exact opposite of what Apple wants
Workaccount2 2y ago
The last thing Apple is going to do is put a bad taste in the mouths of it's most obedient golden geese. Apple stock would probably halve if kids stopped socially shaming each other into buying iPhones.
duxup 2y ago
First thing I would do is to wonder how I could enforce that ... for fun and games on others. And really if we're talking about having to enroll a device into some sort of managed device system, schools don't have the time or manpower to manage tracking every kid's phone that is in the school. And if we're talking about something you don't actively choose to enroll, we're back to my fun and games.
omh 2y ago
There is a potential clash here between control and privacy. A few years ago Apple blocked[1] some parental control apps because "they put users’ privacy and security at risk" This actually came up with our school. They tried to use an app to control student phones but it was fundamentally limited by these Apple restrictions. [1] https://www.apple.com/uk/newsroom/2019/04/the-facts-about-parental-control-apps/ https://www.apple.com/uk/newsroom/2019/04/the-facts-about-pa...
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

andrewla 2y ago

Well said! This is the same problem I have [1] with the messaging around this sort of thing and I don't know why people can't back up and figure out a more consistent approach to these separate issues. One thing I hear a lot from parents of middle school and high school children (mine are just entering this domain) is that there's a deeper problem of teachers losing control of students -- even when they have these policies, the teachers and administrators are unable or unwilling to enforce them. I don't know what the solution to this is, though. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40718848 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40718848

red_admiral 2y ago
> teachers losing control of students Outside very "leafy suburb" areas, this was a problem long before smartphones existed.
NegativeLatency 2y ago
Smaller class sizes couldn’t hurt

duxup 2y ago

The problem with the phones and social media is bad discussion is that ... school's can't fix that. It's just too far outside their ability to control.

VyseofArcadia 2y ago

> But from parent discussions it feels like both the school and parents are mixing up these issues and just coming back with "phones are bad". Always seems to boil down this way. There is no place for nuanced discussion in US school policy. "Zero tolerance" was just a crystallization of existing all-or-nothing trends.

eaurouge 2y ago

> group chats are really good Does your kid need group chats when they're in school with their mates?

pjlegato 2y ago
Moreover, when a kid is perpetually glued to a screen absorbed in a group chat, they are much less likely to interact with others who are physically around them and ever develop any actual mates.

sandworm101 2y ago

>> 1. Use of phones in classrooms ... is undeniably bad and should be banned everywhere. I disagree. For a few years I taught a university class and very much appreciated the kids having their phones in class. In discussions I would often task someone with looking up or confirming some pertinent fact or law. They would usually use their laptops but I didn't much care whether the used their phones. Students having ready access to information can be useful in a classroom.

arp242 2y ago
This isn't really about university classes but elementary school and high school, and no one denied that phones can't be useful on occasion – just that the downsides outweigh the upsides.
- sandworm101 2y ago
  And many highschoolers are just one summer vacation away from a university classroom. Imho a great many highschool seniors are better behaved and take classroom time much more seriously than the average first-year uni student. We should not ball all kids together, as would happen under any total ban on a particular tech.

arp242 2y ago

I don't understand (2); I (and probably you, too) never had a phone going to school, or playing outside, or doing most other things, and this was fine. If you really need to get in touch for the rare emergency that will probably never happen you can just ring the school. I sometimes see parents talk about not being in contact 24/7 is like [1]. On a practical level, "no phones at all" is just so much easier to enforce. [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJP4dr_mioA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJP4dr_mioA

omh 2y ago
I agree that it would be fine to not have phones - we'd all cope. But when my daughter hasn't got home on time if I can check her GPS and see that she's in the park then I can relax a little. If she needs to say she's staying out late, using a group chat to let the whole family know is easier than trying to phone mum, then dad, then grandma. Or she can include a photo showing how much fun she's having. My life is richer because of communication on things like family group chats. It would be a shame to throw the baby out with the bathwater and lose that
- pjlegato 2y ago
  "Surveillance parenting" -- which is "helicopter parenting" magnified through technological tools the Stasi could only dream of -- seems likely to foster long-term dependence and anxiety that far outweigh the positive effects. Yes, it's OK to not know exactly where a responsible older child is down to centimeter-resolution lat/lon coordinates at all times. Most humans, including most alive today, lived like that for all of history.
- arp242 2y ago
  Some of that is rather different than "I would like my child to have a phone for the journey to and from school" from your previous comment mentioned though. I'm just saying it's fine to send your kid to school without a phone. I didn't say anything about group chats in general or (3) from your post or anything else.
- DiggyJohnson 2y ago

pjlegato 2y ago

The fact that many people now develop anxiety if unable to use a phone for even a very short time is a part of the problem. The phone has become a pseudo-appendage for most people now. Even those who spent most of their lives blissfully phone-free quickly internalized the need for connectivity. Raising children from a young age to expect and demand access to phone connectivity at all times is making this problem much worse. No, you do not need to have a phone at all times "for emergencies" that almost never happen. The negative effects of perpetual connectivity are far, far worse. Almost all humans (including those alive today) managed just fine to live life without a perpetual phone link. Teach children to do the same. The phone is a nice-to-have, not a necessity to merely venture out of the house on a routine trip to school and back.

sigmar 2y ago
>No, you do not need to have a phone at all times "for emergencies" that almost never happen. Almost never happen? There have been 464 school shootings in the US since 2010. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_shootings_in_the_United_States_(2000%E2%80%93present) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_shootings_in_th...
- complaintdept 2y ago
  And probably none of them were hindered because students had their phones.
- pjlegato 2y ago
  Yes, that is "almost never" in a country with 340,000,000 people. Besides which, "having access to a cellphone" did not alter the outcome at all in those tragic incidents.
  - accrual 2y ago
    > Besides which, "having access to a cellphone" did not alter the outcome at all in those tragic incidents. Disagree. Being able to communicate to your family or emergency services that a shooting is happening and/or that you are safe or not is invaluable.